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Love the sinner hate the sin?

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
Mmm, I've always found "hate the sin, love the sinner" to be a bit of a red herring to be honest. I would rather that if someone were going to hate me, they'd hate me honestly instead of hiding behind platitudes and trying to slip through a loop-hole in their scripture so they can "get away" with hating me. That's cowardly, in my opinion.

If someone hates something that I am doing as a direct result of an instrinsic part of who I am (especially if it doesn't affect them in the slightest), than as far I'm concerned, they hate me. That's okay with me, but I'd rather they be up front about it so I can either direct appropiate levels of contempt at them or ignore them outright as the situation warrants.

When someone says "I don't hate you, I just hate that you have relations with other men and aren't sorry for it" or "I don't hate you, I just hate the fact that you won't acknowledge the One True God and instead choose to kneel before idols", I'm never quite sure what to think. Are they genuinely making some kind of effort to stop hating? Are they just cowering behind the old chestnut because, for some reason, they can't bring themselves to say "I hate you"? Are they just trying to placate a spirit that might stern words for them if they admit to hating another person?

If you hate me or love me, you can't do it piecemeal. You hate or love the full package.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Ðanisty said:
So basically your stance is that homosexuals are not sinners as long as they believe that being homosexual is not a sin.
My stance on specific homosexuals is thus, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that I think homosexuality is a sin.

Revasser said:
Mmm, I've always found "hate the sinner, love the sin" to be a bit of a red herring to be honest. I would rather that if someone were going to hate me, they'd hate me honestly instead of hiding behind platitudes and trying to slip through a loop-hole in their scripture so they can "get away" with hating me. That's cowardly, in my opinion.
But what if somebody actually doesn't want to hate you? What if they want to like you, despite your sins?

If you hate me or love me, you can't do it piecemeal. You hate or love the full package.
I can. Maybe you can't. I love my dog, but I think he's ugly. In other words, I hate the way he looks. But I still love him.
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
pdoel said:
It's all semantics.
Not wanting to be semantic, but the whole of human communication is (about) sematic(s). So the fact it comes up here as a personal policy or an accusation is really unsuprising.
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
Aqualung said:
But what if somebody actually doesn't want to hate you? What if they want to like you, despite your sins?
"Want to like" is not the same as "love" or even "like." "Want to like" is nothing.

I can. Maybe you can't. I love my dog, but I think he's ugly. In other words, I hate the way he looks. But I still love him.
But would he be the same dog if he didn't look the way he does, however unpleasant?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Revasser said:
Mmm, I've always found "hate the sin, love the sinner" to be a bit of a red herring to be honest. I would rather that if someone were going to hate me, they'd hate me honestly instead of hiding behind platitudes and trying to slip through a loop-hole in their scripture so they can "get away" with hating me. That's cowardly, in my opinion.
Not hating is cowardly? Hogwash! You have no idea how easy it is for me to hate an individual people.

Revasser said:
If someone hates something that I am doing as a direct result of an instrinsic part of who I am (especially if it doesn't affect them in the slightest), than as far I'm concerned, they hate me. That's okay with me, but I'd rather they be up front about it so I can either direct appropiate levels of contempt at them or ignore them outright as the situation warrants.
I do not believe that sin is an intrinisic part of who you are. I personally think some people use this an excuse for their weakness of not being able to fully control their every action.

Revasser said:
When someone says "I don't hate you, I just hate that you have relations with other men and aren't sorry for it" or "I don't hate you, I just hate the fact that you won't acknowledge the One True God and instead choose to kneel before idols", I'm never quite sure what to think. Are they genuinely making some kind of effort to stop hating? Are they just cowering behind the old chestnut because, for some reason, they can't bring themselves to say "I hate you"? Are they just trying to placate a spirit that might stern words for them if they admit to hating another person?
Like I said, I have absolutely no difficulty what's so ever saying "I hate you". That is a rather easy task for me.

Revasser said:
If you hate me or love me, you can't do it piecemeal. You hate or love the full package.
I hope you don't apply this to your own life. Your going to be one lonely person. We all screw up and say sorry.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Revasser said:
But would he be the same dog if he didn't look the way he does, however unpleasant?
Exactly. And would you be the same (theoretically, since I don't know you) lovable person that you are if you were perfect, or even at all different?
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Here is a GREAT article about this subject by Brian Elroy McKinley. Click here for this piece. I cannot copy and paste from my phone, or I would. If someone else wishes to do so, please do. :D
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Revasser said:
Mmm, I've always found "hate the sin, love the sinner" to be a bit of a red herring to be honest. I would rather that if someone were going to hate me, they'd hate me honestly instead of hiding behind platitudes and trying to slip through a loop-hole in their scripture so they can "get away" with hating me. That's cowardly, in my opinion.

If someone hates something that I am doing as a direct result of an instrinsic part of who I am (especially if it doesn't affect them in the slightest), than as far I'm concerned, they hate me. That's okay with me, but I'd rather they be up front about it so I can either direct appropiate levels of contempt at them or ignore them outright as the situation warrants.

When someone says "I don't hate you, I just hate that you have relations with other men and aren't sorry for it" or "I don't hate you, I just hate the fact that you won't acknowledge the One True God and instead choose to kneel before idols", I'm never quite sure what to think. Are they genuinely making some kind of effort to stop hating? Are they just cowering behind the old chestnut because, for some reason, they can't bring themselves to say "I hate you"? Are they just trying to placate a spirit that might stern words for them if they admit to hating another person?

If you hate me or love me, you can't do it piecemeal. You hate or love the full package.
I didn't have to pass the karma around, you'd have frubals from me right now for this post. This is exactly how I feel about the subject.

Not hating is cowardly? Hogwash! You have no idea how easy it is for me to hate an individual people.
Nope. He's saying that not have the balls to admit hatred cowardly.

I do not believe that sin is an intrinisic part of who you are.
That all depends on if you consider instrisic parts of me to be sinful or not.

I hope you don't apply this to your own life. Your going to be one lonely person. We all screw up and say sorry.
Making an honest mistake and truly believing that it is a mistake is completely different than knowing that what you are doing is not only right, but a an integral part of who you are.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ðanisty said:
Nope. He's saying that not have the balls to admit hatred cowardly.
Come again?

Ðanisty said:
That all depends on if you consider instrisic parts of me to be sinful or not.
It doesn't matter who it is.

Ðanisty said:
Making an honest mistake and truly believing that it is a mistake is completely different than knowing that what you are doing is not only right, but a an integral part of who you are.
You can believe it's right until you turn blue in the face, I still don't believe sin is an integral part of anyone. Everybody has the power to change.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Ðanisty said:
I didn't have to pass the karma around, you'd have frubals from me right now for this post. This is exactly how I feel about the subject.
Gave karma on your behalf. I agree. :D
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Come again?
What don't you get? If you don't have the balls to admit hatred, that is cowardly. That is what Revasser is saying.

You can believe it's right until you turn blue in the face, I still don't believe sin is an integral part of anyone. Everybody has the power to change.
So you believe that you could choose to change everything about yourself?

Gave karma on your behalf. I agree. :D
Thanks!
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ðanisty said:
[/color]What don't you get? If you don't have the balls to admit hatred, that is cowardly. That is what Revasser is saying.
I can do both admit that I hate, and hate an individual. Both come easy to me.

Ðanisty said:
So you believe that you could choose to change everything about yourself?
In regards to behavior, my world view, etc. Absolutely!!
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Victor said:
Not hating is cowardly? Hogwash! You have no idea how easy it is for me to hate an individual people. .
Easy ? Yes, unfortunately.

I do not believe that sin is an intrinisic part of who you are. I personally think some people use this an excuse for their weakness of not being able to fully control their every action.
I agree.


Like I said, I have absolutely no difficulty what's so ever saying "I hate you". That is a rather easy task for me.


Far too easy to say.

I hope you don't apply this to your own life. Your going to be one lonely person. We all screw up and say sorry.
Quite. We are human...........;)
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
dawny0826 said:
I can love the sinner and hate the sin. Jesus Christ loved the sinner but hated the sin...
Todd said:
...I hate the sin of others just like I hate the sin in myself. We all sin according to my belief in the bible. I neither hate the person nor hate myself that sins, but I do hate the sin itself.
Victor said:
...To think sin is something tangible that cannot be seperated from the person is a lack of mercy and love.
When I read some of the posts here and bask in the wisdom people bring to the forums, it brings a tear to me eye.:bow: I wish I would Frubals your posts more than once.:D

The expression 'love the sinner hate the sin' is one of the noblest and most Christ like teachings I have encountered. It is not an easy thing to do, as Victor pointed out, because it is quite easy to reject the possibility that people can change. It seems to me the same people who lack the maturity to forgive are also unable to seperate the sin from the sinner. I don't know if these people will change their minds or not, but I do believe they have the capacity.:162:
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I can do both admit that I hate, and hate an individual. Both come easy to me.
Yes, I got that. I was clarifying what Revasser said because you asked if he meant that hatred was cowardly.

In regards to behavior, my world view, etc. Absolutely!!
Can you stop believing in God? Can you stop believing that Jesus is your savior?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
jeffrey said:
Could someone please point me to were Christ stated 'love the sinner, hate the sin'?
Christ exemplified this. He constant admonished sinners for their sin in very loving ways. He told the pharisees to not be such hypocrits, but he didn't hate them. He did it pretty much all the time.
 

Evenstar

The Wicked Christian
jeffrey said:
Could someone please point me to were Christ stated 'love the sinner, hate the sin'?
Yes I would like to hear this too. Excellent link too, and if at all possible I would furbals to the guy who wrote it :D
 
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