1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Looking For A Smart Atheist

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Earthling, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    What have I got? I've got some experience with you, buddy, and unless I'm mistaken you would do anything in your power to demonize, for lack of a better term, the Bible. You are, if memory serves, one of those foam at the mouth atheists, no?

    Of course . . . it's an open forum and anyone can participate. Throw your two cents in.
     
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,355
    Ratings:
    +1,391
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    how do you suppose i've learned a lot of what i know? doing this very thing. by asking questions of others, reading books, commentaries, articles on said subject matters.

    jesus said a tree that won't bear fruit is to be cut down and tossed in the flames. its basically worthless. it offers no practical purpose. a promise, a belief, is known by what it produces. faith without works is d-o-a. if it doesn't produce anything practical for the person, it's worthless. people do this all the time and in everyday life.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8,676
    Ratings:
    +3,849
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Don’t confuse chuckling with foaming from the mouth. Maybe, if I were American I would be more angry. But I am blessed to have grown up in an environment where Christianity is vastly irrelevant. And i cannot demonized anything, on account of not believing in demons, obviously.

    So, I am not angry, i am amused. Yet, still ready to analyze claims rationally.

    So, what have you got? What about Jesus weekend off for our sins?

    And btw, I am a girl, not a buddy, whatever that means.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Well, it can be interesting you mention wind. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the ancient Hebrew / Greek words for wind and breath are the same words translated spirit. Depending upon the context. The same with soul and life. The ancient Hebrew words for those are the same. What I mean is that they can be translated as either in each case. There may be different words translated as life, but the point is, those words can be translated as either life or soul and either spirit, wind, breath, etc.
     
    #124 Earthling, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,355
    Ratings:
    +1,391
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    that is because wind, breath, spirit, mind are all invisible forces that you can only see as a result of their action

    the ancient celtic used to represent it as winding(to turn), twisting, swirling, scrolling, rolling


    Revelation 6:14
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    [​IMG]


    another ancient symbol is the cross, or the svastika.


    another one is the ouroboros.



    in the ancient hindu there is a battle between the nagas and garuda, there is the seraphim, the kundalini, the shekinah, nehushtan vs nachash. all representing the movement of something into flight, to something greater/lower. just like the sri yantra. the generative is downward, outward, dispersing, evolution. the gathering, the harvest is upward, inward, involution.


    Isaiah 55:11
    So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.



    John 3:8
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    but when you build your house, then call me home. that is what love is, home. the body temple

     
    #125 Fool, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,606
    Religion:
    Christian
    Do you believe in the supernatural ? Hat tricks don't win me over.
     
  7. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,443
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    The point (i.e. my point, and Samantha's, if I read her aright) is that while some of the more simple-minded versions of religion (creationism, biblical literalism) are plainly incompatible with science, as your examples illustrate, religious belief per se is not incompatible with it. That's all. From your previous remarks I had thought you accepted that and that we were basically in agreement.
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Well. It's a complex question. If I say do you believe in angels. You probably know what that word means, but if you were the typical atheist you would say no. If I pressed, asking, under absolutely no circumstance do you believe in angels, as appear in the Bible, in the Hebrew / Greek. No.

    But, I say, the word means messenger and is applied to mortal men. Just every day Joe's like us.

    Well, they don't believe in the other kind of angel. The supernatural. Then you go . . . what is supernatural. Supra Natural. It's a philosophical concept, which is potentially problematic from the start. It just outside of the known natural.

    Now when it comes to angels of the Bible that's one thing, but when you talk about the possibility of some similar being inrtra- extra- other- or hyper intelligent pan dimensional beings existing outside of science fiction you may be more open to it.

    If you block out the idea before you have even begun to understand it you certainly aren't open to it and probably never will be. Which is okay, you will probably never come across one. Or a black hole. Or a giant squid.

    I don't block the possibility out.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,559
    Ratings:
    +9,996
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    OK, Genesis 19 seems to link Lot living to Lot's soul living, so seems to make the equivalence between the two.

    Numbers 23 seems to just talk about the person dying and nothing about the soul.

    Joshua 2 doesn't mention souls, only death.
    Judges 5 doesn't mention souls, only death.
    Judges 16 doesn't mention souls, only people being killed.
    1 Kings 20 doesn't mention souls, only saving lives.
    Psalms 22 seems to suggest that keeping souls alive is solely the power of God.
    Ezekiel 18 is in a verse that discusses various times when souls live or die. So it does suggest that souls can die.
    Matthew 2 is talking about the dead of Herod. No souls mentioned.
    Matthew 26 seems to be poetic, not literal
    Mark 3 doesn't mention souls at all
    Hebrews 10 is at best ambiguous. What does 'saving a soul' mean? It may or may not mean anything about the soul dying.
    James 5 does talk about the death of souls, but again in a more poetic context that suggests it is equivalent to being sent to Hell.

    All in all, a mixed bag of texts with no clear theme that I can see.

    What is your point?
     
  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Yeah. See. Amused can be worse than angry. And I think you can still be a buddy and a girl, pal. Reminds me of the South Park Canadian thing. "I'm not your buddy, friend." "Well, I'm not your guy, friend"

     
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,606
    Religion:
    Christian
    So there were angels in antiquity but there are no angels now?
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    My point? The soul dies. It can. It doesn't have to. It does in all of our cases, being from sin. The soul, or life, ends. The soul (life) is sacred. Don't eat the soul (blood) of an animal. Genesis 9:5

    No mention of the soul, eh? But what is the Hebrew / Greek words translated soul and are they in the original text? Translated as something else?

    Very often an atheist will take the Bible at face value without considering the original language. What were the original language words translated as hell where it appears? Gehenna? Hades? Tartarus? 3 different things translated as hell. Heck, what is the Old English word for hell?
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    No, an angel can be a human messenger or a spirit being from heaven that is a messenger of God, depending upon the context. Examples (Genesis 16:7; Genesis 32:3; James 2:25; Revelation 22:8)
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,606
    Religion:
    Christian
    Really? And they don't exist anymore.. Just like no one can walk on water or live inside a fish for three days.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,354
    Ratings:
    +2,579
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    As I said, there are four or five different views. Take your pick.
     
  16. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,559
    Ratings:
    +9,996
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Um, ok. So? So the ancient Hebrews thought the soul could die as an act of God.

    The connection to blood is, at the very least, weak.

    Well, if you want to argue that, give me a 'correct' translation. or compare and contrast them.

    Again, I fail to see what your point is.

    Seriously. Some souls live, some souls die. The difference is determined by God.

    And?
     
  17. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Yeah, that's life. Pick the one that makes the most sense. The one that fits.
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,355
    Ratings:
    +1,391
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    sorry in advance; if it's irrelevant


    the reference he's making is from


    Genesis 9:4
    But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    can be understood as:

    but the flesh with the nephesh(soul) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat. obviously blood carries the result of breathing. when a living thing stops breathing, or stops receiving oxygen, it dies.


    the word nephesh, or soul, hebrew H5315 comes from the root word naphash H5314; which literally means to breath.


    that word blood has two meanings

    blood comes from the hebrew H1818; which is dam, pronounced dahm

    blood
    1. of wine (fig.)

    here is a metaphor regarding the blood/wine in another form

    Genesis 49:11
    Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:


    in a winepress the juice of sour grapes is collected, fermented, and fomented.

    Isaiah 63:3
    I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

    Revelation 19:15
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
     
    #138 Fool, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,354
    Ratings:
    +2,579
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Well, so much for intelligent discussion.

    Have a nice day.
     
  20. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +741
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    You're not getting it. The soul could die. That is to say life ends. It could be old age, it could be a mauling by a grizzly bear, it could be any death. It doesn't have to be God.

    Leviticus 17:11 “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.”

    Leviticus 17:14 “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.”

    Genesis 19:19-20: Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I - I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there - is it not a small thing? - and my soul will live on.”

    Numbers 23:10; "Who has numbered the dust particles of Jacob,
    And who has counted the fourth part of Israel?
    Let my soul die the death of the upright ones,
    And let my end turn out afterward like theirs.”

    Joshua 2:13-14; "And you must preserve alive my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters and all who belong to them, and you must deliver our souls from death.”

    At that the men said to her: “Our souls are to die instead of you people! If you will not tell about this matter of ours, it must also occur that when Jehovah gives us the land, we also shall certainly exercise loving-kindness and trustworthiness toward you.”

    Judges 5:18; "Zeb′u·lun was a people that scorned their souls to the point of death;
    Naph′ta·li also, on the heights of the field."

    Judges 16:16; "And it came about that because she pressured him with her words all the time and kept urging him, his soul got to be impatient to the point of dying."

    Judges 16:30; "And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Philistines.” Then he bent himself with power, and the house went falling upon the axis lords and upon all the people that were in it, so that the dead that he put to death in his own death came to be more than those he had put to death during his lifetime."

    1 Kings 20:31-32; "So his servants said to him: “Here, now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are kings of loving-kindness. Please, let us carry sackcloth upon our loins and ropes upon our heads, and let us go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your soul alive.” Accordingly they girded sackcloth about their loins, with ropes upon their heads, and came in to the king of Israel and said: “Your servant Ben-ha′dad has said, ‘Please, let my soul live.’” To this he said: “Is he still alive? He is my brother.”
     
Loading...