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Looking For A Smart Atheist

Earthling

David Henson
Difficult? It ahould be a piece of cake.

What have you got?

What have I got? I've got some experience with you, buddy, and unless I'm mistaken you would do anything in your power to demonize, for lack of a better term, the Bible. You are, if memory serves, one of those foam at the mouth atheists, no?

Of course . . . it's an open forum and anyone can participate. Throw your two cents in.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I'm hoping that you are wrong. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if that were the case. But let me ask you, because I've experienced this and maybe you have as well. Someone who disagrees with you on the Bible, and it could be an interpretation that is as different from yours as night is day, but you acknowledge that they make a good point. They present a good scriptural referenced case.

What I'm looking for is an atheist's take on the Bible that is fair and open minded and well informed.

What happens if you take an atheist, inform them of the possible spurious influence, the traditional apostasy, and strip it away - what will the atheist conclude SIMPLY regarding what the Bible itself is saying. That could include other factors, other errors besides just the Jewish / Christian pagan influenced apostasy, as well.
how do you suppose i've learned a lot of what i know? doing this very thing. by asking questions of others, reading books, commentaries, articles on said subject matters.

jesus said a tree that won't bear fruit is to be cut down and tossed in the flames. its basically worthless. it offers no practical purpose. a promise, a belief, is known by what it produces. faith without works is d-o-a. if it doesn't produce anything practical for the person, it's worthless. people do this all the time and in everyday life.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What have I got? I've got some experience with you, buddy, and unless I'm mistaken you would do anything in your power to demonize, for lack of a better term, the Bible. You are, if memory serves, one of those foam at the mouth atheists, no?

Of course . . . it's an open forum and anyone can participate. Throw your two cents in.

Don’t confuse chuckling with foaming from the mouth. Maybe, if I were American I would be more angry. But I am blessed to have grown up in an environment where Christianity is vastly irrelevant. And i cannot demonized anything, on account of not believing in demons, obviously.

So, I am not angry, i am amused. Yet, still ready to analyze claims rationally.

So, what have you got? What about Jesus weekend off for our sins?

And btw, I am a girl, not a buddy, whatever that means.

Ciao

- viole
 

Earthling

David Henson
I believe it is not so easy. Just as people who had all kinds of ideas why people got sick and didn't realize there could be microorganisms because they couldn't see them, the atheist comes up with negation concepts about the soul because he can't see it. Jesus put it this way. You can't see the wind but you can see the trees waving back and forth. The proof of the soul is in the fruit it produces.

Well, it can be interesting you mention wind. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the ancient Hebrew / Greek words for wind and breath are the same words translated spirit. Depending upon the context. The same with soul and life. The ancient Hebrew words for those are the same. What I mean is that they can be translated as either in each case. There may be different words translated as life, but the point is, those words can be translated as either life or soul and either spirit, wind, breath, etc.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Well, it can be interesting you mention you mention wind. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the ancient Hebrew / Greek words for wind and breath are the same words translated spirit. Depending upon the context. The same with soul and life. The ancient Hebrew words for those are the same. What I mean is that they can be translated as either in each case. There may be different words translated as life, but the point is, those words can be translated as either life or soul and either spirit, wind, breath, etc.

that is because wind, breath, spirit, mind are all invisible forces that you can only see as a result of their action

the ancient celtic used to represent it as winding(to turn), twisting, swirling, scrolling, rolling


Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Newgrange-Ireland.jpg



another ancient symbol is the cross, or the svastika.


another one is the ouroboros.



in the ancient hindu there is a battle between the nagas and garuda, there is the seraphim, the kundalini, the shekinah, nehushtan vs nachash. all representing the movement of something into flight, to something greater/lower. just like the sri yantra. the generative is downward, outward, dispersing, evolution. the gathering, the harvest is upward, inward, involution.


Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.



John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


but when you build your house, then call me home. that is what love is, home. the body temple

 
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sooda

Veteran Member
What have I got? I've got some experience with you, buddy, and unless I'm mistaken you would do anything in your power to demonize, for lack of a better term, the Bible. You are, if memory serves, one of those foam at the mouth atheists, no?

Of course . . . it's an open forum and anyone can participate. Throw your two cents in.

Do you believe in the supernatural ? Hat tricks don't win me over.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Wow. I was going to critique what you said but obviously you want to continue, even though I've shown all your inaccuracies.



Then we agree to disagree.



They don't have to exist but they do exist. No one said you have to believe in evolution or creationism, but if you;re going to believe the world/universe is 6000 years old, it'll be contrary to scientific evidence. So if you're a creationist, it's unlikely you believe in evolution. Do you understand that?



You're right it doesn't but that doesn't mean it could indirectly. Science examines the natural world(i.e. what can be verified) and there are a ton of stories in holy texts that gives examples of the supernatural(something unverifiable) influencing the natural world. Hence, if there is a claim, like prayer through god heals cancer, it can be tested. This cannot demonstrate a god exists but it's a step in the right direction.
I'd like to think that theists would jump at the chance if this was scientifically demonstrated. For instance, theists claim miracles all the time and attitude some entity did it. Yet, when these claims are tested, they return negligible.
The point (i.e. my point, and Samantha's, if I read her aright) is that while some of the more simple-minded versions of religion (creationism, biblical literalism) are plainly incompatible with science, as your examples illustrate, religious belief per se is not incompatible with it. That's all. From your previous remarks I had thought you accepted that and that we were basically in agreement.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Do you believe in the supernatural ? Hat tricks don't win me over.

Well. It's a complex question. If I say do you believe in angels. You probably know what that word means, but if you were the typical atheist you would say no. If I pressed, asking, under absolutely no circumstance do you believe in angels, as appear in the Bible, in the Hebrew / Greek. No.

But, I say, the word means messenger and is applied to mortal men. Just every day Joe's like us.

Well, they don't believe in the other kind of angel. The supernatural. Then you go . . . what is supernatural. Supra Natural. It's a philosophical concept, which is potentially problematic from the start. It just outside of the known natural.

Now when it comes to angels of the Bible that's one thing, but when you talk about the possibility of some similar being inrtra- extra- other- or hyper intelligent pan dimensional beings existing outside of science fiction you may be more open to it.

If you block out the idea before you have even begun to understand it you certainly aren't open to it and probably never will be. Which is okay, you will probably never come across one. Or a black hole. Or a giant squid.

I don't block the possibility out.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's see what kind of difficulties you may encounter with these verses.

Genesis 19:19-20; Numbers 23:10; Joshua 2:13-14; Judges 5:18; Judges 16:16, Judges 16:30; 1 Kings 20:31-32; Psalms 22:29; Ezekiel 18:20; Matthew 2:20; Matthew 26:38; Mark 3:4; Hebrews 10:39; James 5:20

OK, Genesis 19 seems to link Lot living to Lot's soul living, so seems to make the equivalence between the two.

Numbers 23 seems to just talk about the person dying and nothing about the soul.

Joshua 2 doesn't mention souls, only death.
Judges 5 doesn't mention souls, only death.
Judges 16 doesn't mention souls, only people being killed.
1 Kings 20 doesn't mention souls, only saving lives.
Psalms 22 seems to suggest that keeping souls alive is solely the power of God.
Ezekiel 18 is in a verse that discusses various times when souls live or die. So it does suggest that souls can die.
Matthew 2 is talking about the dead of Herod. No souls mentioned.
Matthew 26 seems to be poetic, not literal
Mark 3 doesn't mention souls at all
Hebrews 10 is at best ambiguous. What does 'saving a soul' mean? It may or may not mean anything about the soul dying.
James 5 does talk about the death of souls, but again in a more poetic context that suggests it is equivalent to being sent to Hell.

All in all, a mixed bag of texts with no clear theme that I can see.

What is your point?
 

Earthling

David Henson
Don’t confuse chuckling with foaming from the mouth. Maybe, if I were American I would be more angry. But I am blessed to have grown up in an environment where Christianity is vastly irrelevant. And i cannot demonized anything, on account of not believing in demons, obviously.

So, I am not angry, i am amused. Yet, still ready to analyze claims rationally.

So, what have you got? What about Jesus weekend off for our sins?

And btw, I am a girl, not a buddy, whatever that means.

Yeah. See. Amused can be worse than angry. And I think you can still be a buddy and a girl, pal. Reminds me of the South Park Canadian thing. "I'm not your buddy, friend." "Well, I'm not your guy, friend"

 

sooda

Veteran Member
Well. It's a complex question. If I say do you believe in angels. You probably know what that word means, but if you were the typical atheist you would say no. If I pressed, asking, under absolutely no circumstance do you believe in angels, as appear in the Bible, in the Hebrew / Greek. No.

But, I say, the word means messenger and is applied to mortal men. Just every day Joe's like us.

Well, they don't believe in the other kind of angel. The supernatural. Then you go . . . what is supernatural. Supra Natural. It's a philosophical concept, which is potentially problematic from the start. It just outside of the known natural.

Now when it comes to angels of the Bible that's one thing, but when you talk about the possibility of some similar being inrtra- extra- other- or hyper intelligent pan dimensional beings existing outside of science fiction you may be more open to it.

If you block out the idea before you have even begun to understand it you certainly aren't open to it and probably never will be. Which is okay, you will probably never come across one. Or a black hole. Or a giant squid.

I don't block the possibility out.

So there were angels in antiquity but there are no angels now?
 

Earthling

David Henson
OK, Genesis 19 seems to link Lot living to Lot's soul living, so seems to make the equivalence between the two.

Numbers 23 seems to just talk about the person dying and nothing about the soul.

Joshua 2 doesn't mention souls, only death.
Judges 5 doesn't mention souls, only death.
Judges 16 doesn't mention souls, only people being killed.
1 Kings 20 doesn't mention souls, only saving lives.
Psalms 22 seems to suggest that keeping souls alive is solely the power of God.
Ezekiel 18 is in a verse that discusses various times when souls live or die. So it does suggest that souls can die.
Matthew 2 is talking about the dead of Herod. No souls mentioned.
Matthew 26 seems to be poetic, not literal
Mark 3 doesn't mention souls at all
Hebrews 10 is at best ambiguous. What does 'saving a soul' mean? It may or may not mean anything about the soul dying.
James 5 does talk about the death of souls, but again in a more poetic context that suggests it is equivalent to being sent to Hell.

All in all, a mixed bag of texts with no clear theme that I can see.

What is your point?

My point? The soul dies. It can. It doesn't have to. It does in all of our cases, being from sin. The soul, or life, ends. The soul (life) is sacred. Don't eat the soul (blood) of an animal. Genesis 9:5

No mention of the soul, eh? But what is the Hebrew / Greek words translated soul and are they in the original text? Translated as something else?

Very often an atheist will take the Bible at face value without considering the original language. What were the original language words translated as hell where it appears? Gehenna? Hades? Tartarus? 3 different things translated as hell. Heck, what is the Old English word for hell?
 

Earthling

David Henson
So there were angels in antiquity but there are no angels now?

No, an angel can be a human messenger or a spirit being from heaven that is a messenger of God, depending upon the context. Examples (Genesis 16:7; Genesis 32:3; James 2:25; Revelation 22:8)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, an angel can be a human messenger or a spirit being from heaven that is a messenger of God, depending upon the context. Examples (Genesis 16:7; Genesis 32:3; James 2:25; Revelation 22:8)

Really? And they don't exist anymore.. Just like no one can walk on water or live inside a fish for three days.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
My point? The soul dies. It can. It doesn't have to. It does in all of our cases, being from sin. The soul, or life, ends. The soul (life) is sacred. Don't eat the soul (blood) of an animal. Genesis 9:5

Um, ok. So? So the ancient Hebrews thought the soul could die as an act of God.

The connection to blood is, at the very least, weak.

No mention of the soul, eh? But what is the Hebrew / Greek words translated soul and are they in the original text? Translated as something else?

Well, if you want to argue that, give me a 'correct' translation. or compare and contrast them.

Very often an atheist will take the Bible at face value without considering the original language. What were the original language words translated as hell where it appears? Gehenna? Hades? Tartarus? 3 different things translated as hell. Heck, what is the Old English word for hell?

Again, I fail to see what your point is.

Seriously. Some souls live, some souls die. The difference is determined by God.

And?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The connection to blood is, at the very least, weak.
sorry in advance; if it's irrelevant


the reference he's making is from


Genesis 9:4
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

can be understood as:

but the flesh with the nephesh(soul) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat. obviously blood carries the result of breathing. when a living thing stops breathing, or stops receiving oxygen, it dies.


the word nephesh, or soul, hebrew H5315 comes from the root word naphash H5314; which literally means to breath.


that word blood has two meanings

blood comes from the hebrew H1818; which is dam, pronounced dahm

blood
  1. of wine (fig.)

here is a metaphor regarding the blood/wine in another form

Genesis 49:11
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:


in a winepress the juice of sour grapes is collected, fermented, and fomented.

Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
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Earthling

David Henson
Um, ok. So? So the ancient Hebrews thought the soul could die as an act of God.

You're not getting it. The soul could die. That is to say life ends. It could be old age, it could be a mauling by a grizzly bear, it could be any death. It doesn't have to be God.

The connection to blood is, at the very least, weak.

Leviticus 17:11 “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.”

Leviticus 17:14 “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.”

Well, if you want to argue that, give me a 'correct' translation. or compare and contrast them.

Genesis 19:19-20: Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I - I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there - is it not a small thing? - and my soul will live on.”

Numbers 23:10; "Who has numbered the dust particles of Jacob,
And who has counted the fourth part of Israel?
Let my soul die the death of the upright ones,
And let my end turn out afterward like theirs.”

Joshua 2:13-14; "And you must preserve alive my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters and all who belong to them, and you must deliver our souls from death.”

At that the men said to her: “Our souls are to die instead of you people! If you will not tell about this matter of ours, it must also occur that when Jehovah gives us the land, we also shall certainly exercise loving-kindness and trustworthiness toward you.”

Judges 5:18; "Zeb′u·lun was a people that scorned their souls to the point of death;
Naph′ta·li also, on the heights of the field."

Judges 16:16; "And it came about that because she pressured him with her words all the time and kept urging him, his soul got to be impatient to the point of dying."

Judges 16:30; "And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Philistines.” Then he bent himself with power, and the house went falling upon the axis lords and upon all the people that were in it, so that the dead that he put to death in his own death came to be more than those he had put to death during his lifetime."

1 Kings 20:31-32; "So his servants said to him: “Here, now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are kings of loving-kindness. Please, let us carry sackcloth upon our loins and ropes upon our heads, and let us go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your soul alive.” Accordingly they girded sackcloth about their loins, with ropes upon their heads, and came in to the king of Israel and said: “Your servant Ben-ha′dad has said, ‘Please, let my soul live.’” To this he said: “Is he still alive? He is my brother.”
 
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