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Featured Jesus raised Himself from the dead

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The Son of God incarnate on earth often prayed to his Father. Obviously he isn't the Father that he payed to.
     
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  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So, our Fighting Men and Women die in a foreign land and the idea that they made the “ultimate sacrifice” is a Pagan idea, propagated by a “Christian” America?

    Noted.
     
  3. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    LoL! That's a stretch.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Oh? How? We each have an immortal soul — same as Jesus. If Jesus Didn’t really die on the cross, because his soul is immortal, hence no ‘sacrifice,’” then our military “don’t really die in battle, because their souls are immortal, hence no ‘sacrifice.’” How is it any different?
     
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't go to the cross as a human sacrifice to pay a theoretical sin debt as a condition for God to forgive.
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    The spirit wouldn't die.

    But still His spirit returned to the Father.

    "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last.​

    I think it's a pretty good thread.

    People have different ideas.

    But they remain cordial.

    I think it's something else.

    It's more complicated than meets the eye.

    "His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."​

    Zeal for the House of God.

    Destroy this House and He will raise it up in three days.

    John adds the commentary that "He was speaking of the temple of His body.

    Is that to be understood as He has zeal for the temple of His Body?

    Are we to understand that ‘I will raise it up on the third day’, means that Jesus is going to rise from the dead?

    If that's the case, does it mean that His zeal for God’s house is a zeal for His own resurrection.

    Since the temple is His body?

    I think something else, something bigger, is going on here, like Let The Reader Understand.

    I can read this as His Body, is the Ecclesia, the Body of Christ.

    Paul told Timothy:

    "I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God…​

    The house of God = the church of the living God.

    It was a done deal, as soon as Jesus died and rose again in three days, we will also be raised and complete the House built without human hands.

    Even though it's not complete yet, it's a sure thing.

    Jesus did it.

    By His birth, death and resurrection after three days guarantees it.

    The Mark version aids in the understanding.

    "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'' - Mark 14:58

    He will build another not made with human hands.

    I'm fairly sure this is related to the sign of the Son of Man, in three days He will raise us up, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn as we light up the stratosphere.

    "After two days he will revive us;
    on the third day he will restore us,
    that we may live in his presence.​

    A building ‘not made with hands’ is a spiritual building. As high priest, Christ entered through the sanctuary in heaven. This building is not a physical building.

    Like the terminology Paul used:

    ‘You, if you are in Christ, are a new creation. You, the church, are the temple of God, not made with hands, not belonging to this creation, but to a new one.’​

    "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.​

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    He went to the cross in a state-sanctioned act of terrorism. What has that to do with whether he sacrificed his life?
     
  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Intolerant religious people had Jesus killed, it was the devils will. Christianity considered it a God sanctioned sacrifice.
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Intolerant government officials, through their military minions, had Jesus killed. And the Bible never says it was “the devil’s will.” It, in fact, says that it was God’s will. Again: none of this is cogent to the argument of “sacrifice or not.”
     
  10. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The Bible does say that killing Jesus was the will of the devil:

    "If you were the children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

    43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

    And the Bible does say that the religious men had Jesus killed. Under Roman rule the Jews were not permitted to carry out the crucifixion's themselves so thats why they had the Romans do it.

    John 18:31-34 31Pilate said, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." "But we have no right to execute anyone," they objected.
     
    #90 cOLTER, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    1) “Doing the works of [Satan]” isn’t the same as “Satan’s ‘will.’”

    2) under Roman rule, the citizens couldn’t kill. There, as I said, it was the Romans who killed Jesus.

    But we digress. How was his death not a sacrifice, but those killed in action are? Can you answer that question?
     
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  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So...

    I guess you’re going to hide behind a laugh, not bother to say what you think is so funny, and neglect to answer the real question, which was: why wasn’t Jesus’ death a sacrifice of life?
     
  13. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    * What's funny is I debunked your claim that "the Bible never says "it was the devils will" but you are too proud to acknowledge it.

    * I also debunked your claims that it was intolerant government officials who killed Jesus. The Jews were in bondage to an occupying force which barred them from carrying out the death penalty decreed by the Sanhedrin. So they had to get the governor to sanction it when frankly he showed that the Romans didn't really care about the Jesus movement at that point.


    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

    de·sire
    /dəˈzī(ə)r/
    1. a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.
      "a desire to work in the dirt with your bare hands"
     
    #93 cOLTER, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  14. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Christ is the only mediator between god and man, and there is no other way to be saved.

    The Lord Jesus Christ Is Jehovah God, the creator of everything that exists. He came into the world as a man but He never ceased to be Jehovah God while He was in the world. He was born with a human nature and He had His God nature at the same time.

    It may be hard for us to understand His two natures, but there's a whole lot more we can't understand about God because His ways are infinitely higher than our puny little minds can comprehend.
     
  15. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Hockeycowboy

    Thanks for asking about me and my family. We are all well, thanks.

    Regarding the question as to who or what mankind is "ransomed" to in Jehovahs Witness theology :

    Hockeycowboy said To put it simply: sin and (accompanying) death. (Not a who.)
    We can’t escape it, on our own." (post #69)


    That does clarify the question somewhat.

    If Augustines' doctrine of "original sin" involved mankind inheriting a guilt for sin from Adam in the Garden, is the Jehovahs Witness doctrine the same or different?
    If the Jehovahs Witnesses do not adhere to Augustines model of "original sin", how does the Jehovahs Witness theology differ on this specific point?

    Again, thanks so much for any clarification you can offer.

    Clear
    ακφιφιω
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No...its called patriotism....something a Christian cannot indulge in if it means participating in violence and bloodshed.
    Is America then a "Christian" country? Are those "fighting men and women" really "Christians" if they disobey Christ's direct command to "love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you"? (Matthew 5:43-44)

    Can a Christian join the military and train to kill other humans? Doesn't that show intent to kill if called upon to do so? Can a Christian even tacitly support the taking of human life when the conflict is purely political, and you are on someone else's soil?

    The "ultimate sacrifice" is to take the bullet for someone...not fire it at them.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You missed the entire point. How typical of your posts...
     
  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told also:

    For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
    John 12:49-50

    Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
    John 5:19

    Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    Acts 2:24

    This is why I believe it was actually God who raised Jesus.
     
  19. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I posted some of the many verses which say that God raised Jesus from the dead. Trinitarians always ignore those verses and play on the one where Jesus says he would raise himself.

    The only way Jesus, who was dead, could raise himself from the dead, is if he had the promise of his Father that if he laid down his life, he could take it back again. Which he did.
     
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  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I didn’t see the part where you backed up your claim that there was no sacrifice. Or are you using hubris to avoid doing that because you know you can’t?

    Oh! And BTW: Jews didn’t crucify people. But Romans did.
     
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