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Featured Jesus raised Himself from the dead

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Teritos

    Thanks so much for clarifying your theories.


    Good journey in life to you.


    clear
    δρακσιω
     
    #61 Clear, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Exactly. If Jesus didn't die, the ransom is not paid and we remain in our sins, unforgiven. (Romans 5:12)

    Jesus is the "last Adam", sent to pay for what the "first Adam" did. (1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 5:18-19)
    They have to be exact equivalents for the redemption to take place. The redemption of humanity required an exact price, which no other human could pay....a sinless life for a sinless life.

    If Jesus is God then mere mortals have the ability to kill God......seriously?
     
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  3. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Deeje said : "Exactly. If Jesus didn't die, the ransom is not paid and we remain in our sins, unforgiven. (Romans 5:12)" (post #62).

    Hi @Deeje

    I notice you referred to a "ransom" that must be paid in order for us to be forgiven.

    Can you explain what or who we are being "ransomed" by inside Jehovahs Witness Theology?
    For examples :

    Who is holding mankind ransom?
    What is the nature and motive to be "held ransom"?
    What is the actual price that is being paid for this ransom?

    Thanks for any clarification you can offer.


    Clear
    φιεινεω
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The same with us human beings.
    Our body of flesh and blood dies.
    But our spirit that is within our body does not die...
    But returns back to God who gave it.
    As written in
    Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, I believe that the scriptures explain it well.....
    In our understanding the ransom is:....a price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance. The basic idea of “ransom” is a price that covers (as in payment for damages or to satisfy justice), while “redemption” emphasizes the releasing accomplished as a result of the ransom paid.

    Jesus provided the ransom price that saw the release of those he redeemed. That release will mean everlasting life for those who remain faithful either to their death, or to the end of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:13)

    When Adam disobeyed his God, it was not for the same reasons that his wife did. Adam is blamed for plunging mankind into an irreconcilable separation from God, (Romans 5:12) not his deceived wife. Adam was not deceived, and so what he did was to willfully disobey a direct command of his God and stole something that God had clearly identified as his own. (1 Timothy 2:13-14) The penalty was death. So it was Adam who left the debt that his children had to pay, but no one was able to come up with the correct payment.

    Matthew 20:28..."Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

    God's laws are set by him, and he does not deviate from them even when applying them causes pain for himself and his own children. Those laws are perfect, but we are not. Sinning is inevitable for us because we were born in sin through no fault on our part......and the only one who could fulfill God's law, had to pay an equivalent "life for a life". (Deuteronomy 19:21; Exodus 21:23-25)

    Since no human could offer the sinless life that was required to cancel the debt, Jesus was sent to pay it for us. He was not born as a human from Adam's faulty genes, but had his life transferred to the womb of a devout Jewish virgin so that the child was not part of Adam's sinful family. The child would grow up and reach maturity before he would begin his mission and ultimately sacrifice his life....in the meantime fulfilling many prophesies that would prove his credentials as the long awaited Savior.

    The ransom could be applied to all, but not all will qualify for it. "Many" have already lived and died faithful to God as disciples of Christ. Many pre-Christian men and women of faith mentioned by Paul in Hebrews 11, are also in line for that ransom to bring them up out of the sleep of death to the life that God first intended for us.

    An equivalent to what was lost for Adam's children....perfect sinless human life.
    Romans 5:18-19...
    "So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

    FWIW, I hope that answers your questions.
     
  6. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    @Deeje

    Thank you so much for explaining your theology on these points concerning the concept of ransom in Jehovah Witness theology.

    Clear
     
    #66 Clear, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  7. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Deeje

    I appreciate your explanation regarding what a ransom is and a bit about what it entails in your theology.
    Can you explain WHO is it that is holding mankind ransom?

    For example, in some theories, I've heard it explained that the Devil (somehow) holds mankind ransom (e.g.) as a slave and the price is paid to him.
    In other theologies, I've heard it explained that God himself (somehow) holds mankind ransom and the price is paid to him.
    In other theologies I've heard attempts to explain it as a figurative ransom that is (somehow) paid to honor a concept (e.g. justice).

    Thanks for any clarification on your theology regarding WHO is holding mankind ransom.

    Clear
    φινετζω
     
    #67 Clear, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Excellent Scriptures!
    “The dead know nothing”, their “thoughts perish.” —Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4.

    So, if Jesus, being dead, ‘knew nothing,’ ‘his thoughts perished’ (and Jesus understood this would happen), then, what did Jesus mean by saying he would “raise it up”?

    This.....
    Who healed the “woman with a flow of blood”? With God’s power Jesus did, right? But what did Jesus attribute it to? He said to her, “Daughter, go in peace; your faith has made you well.”(Mark 5:34) Her faith! Her healing hinged on her faith! In reality, she had control over whether she would be healed or not.

    Remember how, in some instances, Jesus could perform very few miracles? Why? Because of their “lack of faith.” — Mark 6:2-6

    Just as faith is a requirement for salvation, so, too, faith was required of those being healed.

    Since Jesus’ faith in his God — his Father — resurrecting him was complete, he knew he would be....but it depended on himself. So Jesus could say it, in that sense. He was not replying to his followers. He was replying to the contentious Jews...usually, he provided them very little information!

    IMO, In understanding Scripture, context is
    invaluable! So is the help I’ve been given from Jehovah’s Witnesses! Jehovah — Jesus’ Father — is the One who reveals His Word. Luke 10:21
    IMO
     
    #68 Hockeycowboy, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey Clear, hope you and yours are doing well!

    To put it simply: sin and (accompanying) death. (Not a who.)
    We can’t escape it, on our own.

    Hope that answers your question?
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Adam sold his children into slavery to sin and death with no way for any of them to pay the debt that he had left them.
    Such was his love for mankind, that God provided the ransom price himself with the life of his own son. (John 3:16)

    A redeemer in Israel could pay a debt for a relative or friend and release that one from a life of servitude....that is what God and his son did for us.
     
  11. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    I would like to make two things clear.
    The sacrifice took place on the cross. The body was slaughtered and the blood was shed, as required by the Law of Moses. But Jesus himself, who lived in that body, that is his spirit, did not die, nor can he die. This would be a big contradiction if the one through whom everything was created and through whom everything is held together were dead.

    Someone here is quoting scriptures that show that God raised him, yes, I agree. Jesus is God who raised his own body. What died was never God himself, but his body.
     
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The atonement theory contaminated the religion about Jesus after he returned to heaven. The Father has always been forgiving.
     
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  13. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    It’s Gods Love and mercy that forgives, not killing an innocent man as a substitute! Jesus never made forgiveness conditional to such a crass injustice.
     
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  14. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    I don't believe that when someone is dead he still exists, when someone is "brain death" he is gone. The soul in Hebrew means "life", animals are also called souls. But if the living being is dead, he is no longer a soul, no longer a living being, but a dead being.
     
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  15. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    When we die, our soul goes back to God, who places it in a holding area called Sheol. Then on judgement day God will reunite everyone who has ever lived with their body, then Jesus will cast all those who never knew Him into the lake of fire where they will be tormented in fire forever. He will also receive all believers into His ever lasting paradise.
    we have to be careful not to force God into our own little minds and expect Him to do what we want Him to do. He will do exactly as He promised to do and He is not bound by your laws of physics, He will laugh at those who try tell Him that a person can't exist without their approval.
     
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  16. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

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    The soul (or spirit) is a tiny piece of God. It is an amazing thing and it can do a lot of miracles, if one tries.

    Jesus was very much like the rest of us, he had a soul. But, unlike the rest of us, his soul was very powerful and he was very kind.

    1Corinthians 8:6 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    In other words, Christ was the middleman.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    As a New Testament Christian I must disagree. According to John 1:14 the Son is the Word. According to Revelation 19:13 this is affirmed. And according to John 1:3 He is the sole cause of all caused things by God. Unless He is acknowledge as God too one does not know God, John 14:6.
     
  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    There is an actual person called Jesus Christ who was killed. That person was then raised from the dead by God.
     
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  19. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Son isn't the Father.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    And the Father is not the Son. Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ." Genesis 1:1, "IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
    Colossians 1:15-17, ". . . Who is the image of the invisible God, . . .. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. . . ."

    God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are the one and the same God.
     
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