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Featured Jesus raised Himself from the dead

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jews wanted to kill Jesus but they couldn't do it themselves legally. With Steven, the first martyr, they dispensed with all pretense and stoned him to death on the spot!

    I already answered your sacrifice question in post #85. Jesus never said that he was a "sacrifice". He said that he and his gospel would be rejected and that he would be killed and that the Jews would be punished for it.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the word "IT" is a neuter word and Not a person. Not an angelic spirit person, nor a physical person.
    At Ecclesiastes 12:7 B one's spirit is a neuter "IT" that returns to God, so one's spirit is Not a person.
    So, Jesus' spirit "IT" returned to God 'until' his God later resurrected the dead Jesus back to his pre-human spirit-person life.
    Just as a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but "IT" is returned back to the hands of the owner.
    So, any future life prospects now lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day.
    Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
    This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the 'future tense' that there ' is going to be' a resurrection......

     
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Perhaps I was creating another point since you insinuated that America thinks of itself as a "Christian" nation.
    And you seemed to glorify the "fighting men and women"....many of whom consider themselves "Christians".

    What is a sacrifice after all....? it costs you something that you value....right? What value does a sacrifice have if God does not see it as such? I think of all those indoctrinated monks who cloistered themselves away from humanity in monasteries, bound by vows of poverty and silence.....is that what Jesus told his disciples to do? NO! It was in fact, just the opposite, so those sacrifices were not made to God at all.....but as Paul said...what is not sacrificed to God is sacrificed to demons. (1 Corinthians 10:20-21)

    Since God sent Jesus to fulfill a specific mission, and his death was the culmination of that mission, the sacrifice of his life was voluntary and it created the means to redeem the human race. It also released the "lost sheep" from the grip of apostate Judaism which by that time was a complete sham. (Matthew 23)

    It has been pointed out to you many times that the Jews had no legal right to execute anyone, but they wanted Jesus dead, so they brought him to Pilate on a political charge of sedition, saying that he was claiming to be King of the Jews, when that was Herod's governmentally appointed position.

    When Pilate refused to convict an innocent man, the Jews stepped up their agenda by threatening to report Pilate himself for sedition.....this scared the pants off Pilate because to supplicate the mob he had Jesus flogged and his flesh torn to ribbons.....then handed him over for execution. The Romans did the deed but the Jews forced the issue. Jesus' death was prophesied but he had to die as an innocent man, which was why he asked God to forgive those who performed the execution, but not the perpetrators of the crime.

    The Jews virtually cursed themselves and their children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:25) They have never known peace since their exit and dispersion from the Promised Land. God was forced to abandon them. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    Suggesting that the Jews were not guilty of Jesus' murder is as nonsensical as saying that he raised himself from the dead. Dead people cannot raise themselves. It plainly states that his Father raised him. Direct statements.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Jesus talked about laying down his life for others. That’s a sacrifice.
     
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  5. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Teritos

    REGARDING THE INDEPENDENT EXISTENCE OF MATTER AND OBJECTS
    Teritos said : "According to the Bible, only Jesus' body died, but the spirit within him never died and cannot die. Because all things exist through him, if his spirit would die, the whole world would perish. What do you think about it?"

    "Jesus is like electricity, he is the one who makes everything work. But when Jesus is gone, everything goes off. Jesus is everywhere, He keeps the creation alive.""

    I think that this theory exceeds the data. I see no reason why all of creation which exists cannot have an independent existence once it is organized.
    Given your example of Jesus being the electricity by which all things exist and which would "shut off" immediately if he ceased to exist, I do not see a reason for this.
    For example, I have made things in my own life and these things exist because of me. These things will exist when I die.
    I do not see why things would immediately go into non-existence if Jesus died though I think the law of entropy means they would ultimately disorganize and change over eons of time if no other power intervened.


    REGARDING THE THEORY THAT JESUS RAISED HIMSELF UP
    I don't see any advantage of this model over the earlier Judeo-Christian belief that it is God the Father who resurrected Jesus from death.

    For example, the earliest Judeo-Christian belief that the poster @LightofTruth describes in post number 9 seems just as logical as your model and it is more historically coherent as well
    For example :
    LightofTruth said : Act_2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    Act_2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Act_4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

    Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

    Act_13:30 But God raised him from the dead...." (Post #9)


    LightofTruth continued with more examples in post #9, but these are sufficient to describe the early Christian model.



    Teritos said : "Nobody created with God the world. God alone through himself everything was created..."

    Again, I do not see any advantage of this sort of interpretation but instead, I think the early Judeo-Christian belief that Jesus Created all created things related to our existence under the direction and authorization of God the Father rather than independent of God the Father is more logical and more historically coherent.

    In any case, good luck coming to your own understanding and your own models regarding how these things happened


    Clear
    ειειφυτωω


     
    #105 Clear, Feb 28, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus raised Himself from the dead

    One must have been given to understand the above from Pauline-Christianity.
    Jesus did not die, I understand, on the Cross so there is no question of raising from the dead.
    Following points needs to be understood, in this connection, please. Right?
    Pauline-Christianity is based on a fake vision of Paul (and the credulous Pauline-Christians, mislead by him believe it) with below mentioned false creeds, I understand:

    1. Jesus s/o Mary died a cursed death on the Cross (with no reliable eyewitness to narrate it)
    2. to lift the burden of the sins of the sinful Christians including (sinful) Paul and the (sinful) disciples and or the (sinful) Apostles
    3. Jesus s/o Mary rose from the dead, (it is false concept), as he did not die on the Cross to start with, (it was crafted to make Jesus God, which is never true)
    4. And then Jesus s/o Mary secretly traveled to Galilee (a false pretext, if Jesus s/o Mary was God then he needed not to move about secretly)
    5. and from Galilee Jesus s/o Mary ascended to the skies (another false claim, if Jesus was God he would have ascended to skies right from Golgotha where he was put on the Cross)
    6. (What facility is there in Galilee that made it easier for Jesus to ascend to sky from Galilee that was not available in Golgotha)
    7. And Jesus sat on the right hand of God-the-Father and the (sinful) spectators saw him seated (none mentioned by names and other verifiable antecedents of them)
    8. (And none of them mentioned as to how long did they see Jesus in the sky and then he disappeared from the sky, and why can’t they see him now seated there.)
    Right?

    Regards
     
  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    When I was brain prickled irradiated I saw my science brothers historic DNA spirit recorded image emerge. After seeing gas small bodied burning as black or brown wisping smoke.

    His human life long deceased. I knew by clothes he wore the era was around Shakespearean era. So he is deceased. What was observed in Jesus effect.

    His heavenly gas spirit water oxygen bio microbes was burnt to carbon. It cooled as I was told ice melt instantly replaced lost water and oxygen. So the spirit just mainly water within his body reincarnated. By image only.

    Reason it never should have happened as man is not an image science radiation effect evaporated the use water holy life.

    Bio life owns water ground mass presence.

    Science was using burning gases to get energy changes in stone. Burning gases uses water oxygen to not burn. We live where gases don't burn. God the stone seal does not burn.

    Gases deep under ground not the seal burn. Gods hell.

    Satanist is human scientist unsealed God gases and brought beginning heavens burning gas out of God body.

    Thesis in the beginning God spirit owned burning gas light. God O mass the stone owned cold sealed gases not alight.

    Science did it

    Knew it did it.
    Told everyone. My man human Confess of Sion that he caused it.

    And still today that man society science wants to claim that it never happened when their bible science confession states it did happen.

    Coercion to use a lot of topics not involved in natural history about the ancient science reasoning to be allowed by human choice and coercion to do it again.

    Personality disorders the destroyer mentality human owned was therefore also discussed as relative human advice.
     
  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    He did, but it wasn’t a ransom payment.
     
  9. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The material body of Jesus was gone before the person of the Son of God returned in the new form.
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I agree. I hate what substitutionary atonement has done to Xy!
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus raised Himself from the dead

    Jesus did not have the power to raise himself from the dead, I understand. Right?
    Had Jesus the power to do so then he would have not been put on the Cross to start with, please? Right?
    Jesus prayed to G-d/the-Father in the garden of Gethsemane the whole night crying and shedding tears to save Jesus' life, please. Didn't Jesus, please?

    Regards
     
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, Jesus was a divine being in a human body. So after he allowed his body to be killed, he returned to prove his authority as he said that he would. Very simple.
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The above is one's incorrect understanding of the Jesus' teachings, one must be following the wrong, I understand, Pauline-Christianity which due to its mythical and unreasonable teachings has become the breeding ground of Atheism, please. Right?
    If Jesus' would have raised himself from the literal and physical dead, then out of the tomb he would have appeared openly to the Jews to whom he was to show the Sign of Jonah but Jesus moved secretly , which tells that he was a human being as he was before the event of Cross, please. Right?
    Hope, one will correct oneself, please. Right?

    Regards
     
  14. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    No, incorrect. Jesus appeared to believers after death in reward for their faith. Not unbelievers who rejected his gospel and tried to destroy him.

    You need to correct yourself and read what the Bible so plainly teaches.
     
  15. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    It is my opinion that no spirit can die. Ever. Even ours.
     
  16. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    I like the way you've worded it.

    I agree.

    "Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
    It's in God's safe hands.
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    God can Not die being from everlasting - Psalms 90:2
    So, yes you are right that Jesus did Not have the power to raise himself....
    This is why Scripture teaches that God resurrected dead Jesus:
    - Acts of the apostles 2:24; Acts of the Apostles 2:32; Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Acts of the Apostles 5:30; Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:12
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I suppose you are thinking about ' spirit persons '( aka angels ) .
    But our spirit is not an ' angelic or spirit person ' because our spirit in Scripture is a neuter "IT" according to Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Innocent Jesus s/o Mary was neither "son of god" nor G-d, so Jesus had to take precautions and he had to hide from the public, after when he got delivered from the Cross in near-dead position, lest Jesus is not caught again and killed, I figure. Right?
    Jesus moved secretly to Galilee, that is a sure proof and it is very much in the 4-Gospels itself, I understand, that Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross. Right?
    It is a happy news for the Christians, which Second Coming 1835-1908 has brought from G-d, please. Right?

    Regards
     
    #119 paarsurrey, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply, I do think Jesus was definitely dead after the soldier pierced his hanging body.- John 19:34-37.
    Plus, in public Jesus used different materialized bodies after his God resurrected dead Jesus.
    I find the coming ' time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33 is still ahead of us.
     
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