1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    41,443
    Ratings:
    +24,530
    Religion:
    Atheist
    And that is mostly just your own interpretation. No more valid than that of any other Christian or non-Christian.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    41,443
    Ratings:
    +24,530
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Did God send it or did people just write it into the scriptures?

    What reasonable and reliable tests do you have for the scriptures?
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23,623
    Ratings:
    +6,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Why do you believe that?
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,883
    Ratings:
    +7,742
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I wonder if God reads the Pew Polls....? [​IMG]

    Since Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life, then perhaps the "many" who are on the other road represent the 79%? What do you reckon? (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23) [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +428
    Religion:
    Scripture
    You posted the verse. Jesus said that he who would save his life will lose it. And he who would lose his life would save it.

    Both lose their lives, but only one saves it. The one who loses it.

     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus was being figurative. Was Christ Mistaken About His Second Coming?

     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23,623
    Ratings:
    +6,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I reckon you are right, but I am sure we not agree on who the "few" are that are on the road to life. ;)
     
  8. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2021
    Messages:
    258
    Ratings:
    +47
    The two things that come to mind when I read these verses are the concepts of translation and...translation! :) (This is will make more sense later)

    First is the translation of the word "generation" in the Bible - because it has been shown to mean a couple of different things depending on context.

    For example, the word "generation" is used to describe "history" such as in Genesis when it discusses the "generations of the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 2:4).

    It can also refer to an "age" or "dispensation of time" like when God told Noah that he was "righteous in this generation" - that was not a reference to only those of Noah's age but of that specific period of time which spanned multiple "generations" as we interpret it. (Genesis 7:1)

    It has also been used to describe someone's manner of living - such as when Isaiah asked the reader who would "declare [the] generation" of the Lord. (Isaiah 53:8)

    Peter even used it to describe all the faithful as a "chosen generation" (1 Peter 2:9) so it could be used to describe a particular group of people or an ideology.

    So - the references to "generation" that you mentioned above could be the Lord claiming that there would still be followers of Christ upon the Earth at the time of His Second Coming. It was less a prophecy about His Second Coming and more a prophecy about the preservation of the Church.

    The other reference to going through all the towns before His coming could be similar. He is telling His followers that their missionary efforts would never cease and that Israel would one day be scattered.

    Finally the one from 1 Thessolonians and Matthew 16 are most likely references to the concept of translation - meaning the idea that there have been prophets throughout time who never died according to the flesh but were instead either taken up bodily unto God or decided to sojourn upon the Earth until the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

    Enoch and Elijah are famous examples of men who left the Earth without tasting death. And John the Beloved is also considered by many to be one who was promised by the Lord to "tarry" (or not die) until His Second Coming (John 21-20-22)

    Paul was most likely referring to this concept of translation in 1 Thessolonians because he said prior to the verse you quoted,

    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." (1 Thessolonians 4:13-15) (Bold and italics added)

    Paul was explaining that those faithful who died in Christ will one day return with Him during His Second Coming as Resurrected Beings like the Lord Himself.

    He then made it explicitly clear that any one of those were who chosen to remain until the coming of the Lord would not prevent the dead from returning at the Second Coming.

    That leads into the verses you quoted where he said that those who remained would join with the Resurrected Beings with the Lord in the air.

    I believe Paul had hope that he would be one of those who would be selected to remain - but we know that he was not because he was beheaded in Rome.
     
  9. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2020
    Messages:
    1,393
    Ratings:
    +735
    Religion:
    agnostic deist

    You know, Trailblazer, if you knew how many paperbacks on the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming are out there (easily 250,000 since Late Great Planet earth earned Hal Lindsay about 100 million bucks) you wouldn't wonder at all. Christian minds love the sensational lure of Bible prophecy about the 2nd Coming and there's no shortage of writers who smell lots of $$$'s and just take the same tired old formulaic scenario of rapture, rise of antichrist, european Union, antichrist wounded in head with sword, inhabited by satan, becomes world leader, forces everybody to take 666, then armageddon and jesus riding down on a white horse and just rinse repeat it with splashy covers like this:
    [​IMG]

    . This is a nutshell version. click and then scroll down:

    Chick.com: Beast, The

    I am not innocent. I was a sucker for this stuff just like hundreds of millions of other Christians are way back in the early days of my conversion. If only...IF ONLY I had back all the money I wasted on these books I'd be rich today.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23,623
    Ratings:
    +6,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

    What I believe those verses mean is that if a person dies to this worldly life he will bring forth much spiritual fruit and attain eternal life, and such a man will be the one who hates his life in this world, but the person who loves this worldly life will lose eternal life. Thus it is a tradeoff.

    Is that what you meant?
     
  11. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2020
    Messages:
    1,393
    Ratings:
    +735
    Religion:
    agnostic deist
    Well, if wide is the gate that leads to destruction, then I'd say God is doing one hell of a lousy job saving people.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    41,443
    Ratings:
    +24,530
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I do try, and I do seem to do much better than most Bible literalists.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2020
    Messages:
    1,393
    Ratings:
    +735
    Religion:
    agnostic deist
    I thank you for the effort. I don't buy it though.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    41,443
    Ratings:
    +24,530
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Because when one puts proper tests to the Bible it fails. But I want to know how believers test it. If they can test it properly then they can claim to have a rational faith. So far I have not been surprised by any of them:(
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,883
    Ratings:
    +7,742
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    This agree with.....but he did not divulge his truth to any one individual......Christianity by its definition has to be a "church"...not a building, but a gathering or "congregation" of like minded individuals all taught by the same teacher...Jesus Christ. We must of necessity all be united in our beliefs, with no dissension. (Hebrews 10:24-25; 1 Corinthians 1:10) Only God's spirit can accomplish that degree of unity.

    John 17:20-22...
    "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

    If all those "individuals" to whom God has divulged his truth cannot agree, then it cannot be from God in the first place. Christianity has never been about individuals and what they think or feel is correct.....its about the collective. If the collective is cohesive, peaceful and operating harmoniously as a global brotherhood, obediently following ALL of Jesus' teachings, then that is where you will find the truth.

    There will never be an earthly Temple rebuilt. For the simple reason that there is no need. As Paul said these earthly things represented things in heaven.
    Hebrews:11-14...
    "Also, every priest takes his station day after day to offer holy service and to make the same sacrifices often, which can never take sins away completely. 12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect for all time."

    There was no longer a need for the earthly Temple because there was longer a need for the sacrifices offered there. Jesus offered the permanent sacrifice once and for all. This is why there has been no Temple for the last 2,000 years.

    The ones chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom will have the privilege of serving God in his grand spiritual Temple, where the High Priest and his priesthood are already preparing for the final showdown with satan's world.
    Their priesthood is not served on earth but in heaven from where they will administer the rulership of God's Kingdom over this earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23,623
    Ratings:
    +6,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    To look at you now, I can hardly believe you were suckered in, but just think of how lucky you are to have escaped. :)

    As I always say, it is better to be a nonbeliever than a believer with false beliefs. One reason for that is because it is always possible to find the truth if you don't know what it is yet, but for Christians who are certain that their beliefs are 'the only way' it is not possible to see any other truth because their minds are closed like a steel trap. :(
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23,623
    Ratings:
    +6,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It's not God who saves or punishes people, it is the people themselves. ;)

    “He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,883
    Ratings:
    +7,742
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I wasn't selling it.....[​IMG] Its an 'invitation only' situation. (John 6:65)

    I believe that what you mistook for Christianity never was.....there are "wheat" and "weeds" remember? Could it be that you mistook one for the other? There was not going to be a clear separation until the harvest time.....I can see the reapers waiting for the signal to begin the harvest as we speak. It starts with the weeds and ends with the wheat taken into God's storehouse. I'd be happy to be a bit of grain on the floor.....
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,823
    Ratings:
    +2,539
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The temple will be rebuilt if for no other reason than the earth is simply not whole without it. But in addition to that, God commands the Jewish people to offer sacrifice. There are many sacrifices -- not just atonement mind you. While Judaism works okay without the temple, it is not at its best. Judaism simply isn't complete without the temple. It is simply a matter for when the time is right. (Right now is not the time.)
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,883
    Ratings:
    +7,742
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I have seen many excuses offered for why Jews believe that the Temple has never been rebuilt...but if Judaism is "not whole", or is "incomplete" without it, then why have 2,000 years elapsed with no command to rebuild it?

    How do Jews offer the required sacrifices under the Law that they still believe is binding, when there is no way to offer them legitimately? Where is the priesthood? Did it just disappear?

    Even in the desert God had the Tabernacle constructed for the sacrifices to be offered. The wilderness sojourn was only 40 years and they still had the means to offer their sacrifices, despite the fact that they had not yet entered the Promised Land.

    I guess that the Jewish people have to come to terms with why their Temple was destroyed in the first place....? God only ever allowed it when the Jewish people, (under their corrupt leadership) had offended him to the limit......could it be that Jesus was the Messiah and that he has paid the ultimate sacrifice so that an earthly Temple is no longer necessary? A synagogue was not a replacement for the Temple...was it?

    Didn't Jesus tell his disciples that "a stone would not be left upon a stone and not thrown down"? (Matthew 24:1-2) It wasn't Jesus' followers who destroyed the Temple but the Roman army. How did Jesus know that this would be the case? How could he tell his disciples to flee to the mountains so as to avoid what happened in that first awful holocaust in Jerusalem? Why do they believe that it was allowed to happen again in Nazi Germany?

    Why do Jews believe that God allowed it to happen at all?
     
Loading...