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It's the Guns.

Curious George

Veteran Member
Not sure about rational. Logical, maybe concerning the constitution. But if we consider how the second amendment was created and its true purpose or translation, then I do not agree with you concerning it's rational test.
And I would suggest that no understanding of the constitution or history gives way to the regulations already in force, let alone more regulation.
Then there's the debate of the overall value of guns to society. All the issues that we supposedly have that guns supposedly fix, well, why then do we not see the same level of issues witnessed by other modern western countries? You and I have debated this before, and I frankly, rather not reiterate old discussions. I'm still at a mindset that if other modern countries can exist with less guns or more gun control, without a threat of invasion or a threat of a corrupt government, then I believe we are doing poorly in this argument.
I think that anyone who might suggest that the U.S. or any other modern country is at risk of no longer existing without guns or with strict regilation of guns is exaggerating. That however does not mean that there is no risk or there will never be such a risk. Just not one worth discussing as a current possibility.
I'm fine if folks want to use guns for recreation or for defense, but the level of gun awareness, responsibilities and control are so awful in this country, that I can't agree to allow ownership without further enforcement of control.
Well, then I would suggest that you advocate for an ammendment to the constitution. That is what should have been changed and that is what should be changed if we as a society want to regulate gun ownership. The problem is that we do mot want that as a society. A large group of us want that but not as a society. To me the issue is as simple as if someone were to suggest we outlaw or enforce some religion. Such a change is not worthy of consideration simply because a group of people feel it might make us safer.

We needn't reiterate or rehash our previous discussions but you should understand that what you want is akin to suggesting we ban or regulate Catholicism because of some priests transgressions.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sure, but it's still missing the point of the amendment if you're using guns for the purpose of poorly-regulated recreation.


Nope, never said that, so the rest of this paragraph is a childish strawman.


Once again, I didn't say that. I said it was poorly-regulated. Once again, you're engaging a strawman.


And yet countries like the UK where firearms are practically non-existent and countries like Sweden which have much stricter gun control don't seem to have the same problem with gun violence that America has. Go figure.


So you're arguing that obtaining a gun illegally is just as easy as obtaining one legally, or that putting regulations on the guns sold or supplied legally, and the industry that produces them, won't make it more difficult to get a hold of them?


And many people get a hold of them legally and pose a massive threat and kill hundreds of people. Do you really think it's worth the deaths of thousands of people every year just so a few million people can own a thing which either they a) will never actually use or, b) will use and statistically make themselves and their family less safe? Again, I'm not even calling for a gun ban, just more regulation. Better regulation doesn't harm the people willing to own and operate firearms within the law at all, all it will do is prevent people who will use guns to harm others from being able to do so as easily. You seem under the unusual impression that putting regulations on a tool made exclusively to kill will somehow harm people who don't want to kill people, which is pretty wrong-headed.


And do you think the sheer number of guns currently in America, both legally and illegally, that have been mass-produced by an extremely lucrative and poorly-regulated industry seeking to flood the market whilst wielding massive political power pays absolutely no role whatsoever in that?


Translation: "There's just nothing we can do despite all the global evidence that suggests gun regulations work to reduce murder rates - our country (the only one in which mass shootings can be considered a regular occurrence) is just completely powerless and no decisions we can make or act on will ever have a tangible difference on this issue despite the abundance of evidence to the contrary".


Great idea! Why didn't I think of that?? Rather than putting guns out of the hands of people who would use them to harm others, or put tighter regulations on an industry which isn't concerned with how much harm their products cause, all we need to do is investigate and eradicate the fundamental causes of all violent crime!

While we're at it, why don't we end all other forms of crime too? And no more war would be a nice idea. And here I was wasting my time thinking of putting more regulations on an industry that regularly causes violent death due to lack of regulation - but, obviously, such thinking is far too unrealistic and utopian.
Talk about strawmen ! I wasn´t Nice bit of sarcasm talking about ¨ eliminating crime ¨ I was talking about measures to curb and lessen gun crime. Nice sarcasm though.

I asked why you wanted the gun industry to be ¨ more regulated ´ You didn´t answer clearly at all. They vare fically well managed, their employees work in safe environments, their employees are paid well with benefits, their products are well built and safe for the purchaser, so, what would you regulate ?

Now, to mitigating the causes of gun crime.

1) Actually enforce the current gun laws on the books. Violators negotiate away too often their gun law culpability for copping a plea on a concurrent crime. The current gun laws should be strictly enforced, with mandatory sentences, and no discretionary enforcement.

2) ATF and other agencies should have increased resources in dealing with gun crime. They should make massive efforts at finding the illegal gun dealers, and developing probable cause to eliminate them. Now, they are usually only identified if the police stumble on them while conducting another investigation.

3) Recognize that society has completely changed. No longer is America like it once was. With the same per capita number of legal firearms owners, when I went to school so called mass shootings were unheard of. One could order a firearm through the mail.

However, it is no longer the 1950ś. Like it or not, targets that draw these crazed people need to be hardened. The police don´t do prevention well, They haven´t the resources. Their mandate is to react after an incident begins.

Schools with appropriately screened and trained armed teachers offer a defense that actually has an opportunity to be effective at the start of an incident. Many Churches have designated armed responders as part of their congregations.

These steps may seem repugnant, and they are. But, once again, they reflect the America of today. Stopping someone from filling out the forms, having a background check, and not allowing a man or woman to buy a Thompson Contender, a hunting pistol, will do virtually nothing to eliminate gun crime and mass shootings.

4) Social media surveillance is critical. Necessary resources should allocated for this purpose. Time after time it is discovered that a crazed shooter is responsible for posts indicating that he was contemplating or proclaiming violence, and once identified a multi agency approach should be instituted to minimize the threat.

5) Mental health issues. Why has our society, and in fact most of the world become so violent ? An actual maximum effort should be made to try and answer the question, then try and eliminate some of the causes

There is absolutely no doubt that for whatever the reason, mentally ill folk are allowed to be free in society. Anyone who would commit a mass shooting is severely mentally ill, deranged, and usually this was known before the incident.

I once was involved in stopping a young lady from jumping to her death from the top of a building. It was the second time this occurred. As usual, we sent her for a mental health evaluation at the appropriate hospital. She was released in each case after 72 hours. We begged the head of the psych unit to keep her and really help her. Because of lack of bed space, lack of funds, civil rights issues, etc., etc, she was released. A month later she obtained a gun, which she had no legal right to own, and killed herself. This scenario is played out regularly in the US, and instead of shooting themselves, some shoot others. This can and should be stopped.

You state that a firearms sole purpose is to kill. Utter nonsense. To kill people, or animals ? Still nonsense.

I have two single shot target rifles, that were designed for target competition, nothing else, ditto for some target pistols, that is what they were designed for. I have a beautiful over and under shotgun, designed for bird hunting. Since I am not a hunter, and don´t like to kill anything, I use it on large exploding type targets, great fun. It would be useful for home defense for my wife, if for some reason I am not at home.

Finally, there is the issue of the second amendment to the US Constitution. I don know if you are an American or not. Your ignorance regarding firearms would lead me to suspect not, but you certainly could be.

Firearm ownership is a right that cannot be removed, accept by an amendment to the Constitution, which will never happen, civil martial law, which I believe has never happened country wide, or a convention of the states, which has never happened.

You may hate it, rail against it, point out reasons why it should be eliminated and denied to the citizenry, but it is still my right. It is no more removable than your first amendment right to verbally trash the second amendment.

Penalizing the legal gun buyer will not deter those who want to kill with a gun. All the drug control laws have not deterred the illegal use of drugs. They have created unintended consequences. Folk who have very serious medical pain issues are having difficulty obtaining the medication they need. Physicians are limited as to how many scrips they write. Some patients do not pass the stringent government imposed test for pain meds, yet their docs believe they are needed. Many true pain patients are turning to the illegal market to try and get their medication.

The feel good restriction of legal gun buyers will be no different. Those bent on killing with a gun will obtain one, illegally, just as under current law those not qualified to own guns get them.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Talk about strawmen ! I wasn´t Nice bit of sarcasm talking about ¨ eliminating crime ¨ I was talking about measures to curb and lessen gun crime. Nice sarcasm though.

I asked why you wanted the gun industry to be ¨ more regulated ´ You didn´t answer clearly at all. They vare fically well managed, their employees work in safe environments, their employees are paid well with benefits, their products are well built and safe for the purchaser, so, what would you regulate ?

Now, to mitigating the causes of gun crime.

1) Actually enforce the current gun laws on the books. Violators negotiate away too often their gun law culpability for copping a plea on a concurrent crime. The current gun laws should be strictly enforced, with mandatory sentences, and no discretionary enforcement.

2) ATF and other agencies should have increased resources in dealing with gun crime. They should make massive efforts at finding the illegal gun dealers, and developing probable cause to eliminate them. Now, they are usually only identified if the police stumble on them while conducting another investigation.

3) Recognize that society has completely changed. No longer is America like it once was. With the same per capita number of legal firearms owners, when I went to school so called mass shootings were unheard of. One could order a firearm through the mail.

However, it is no longer the 1950ś. Like it or not, targets that draw these crazed people need to be hardened. The police don´t do prevention well, They haven´t the resources. Their mandate is to react after an incident begins.

Schools with appropriately screened and trained armed teachers offer a defense that actually has an opportunity to be effective at the start of an incident. Many Churches have designated armed responders as part of their congregations.

These steps may seem repugnant, and they are. But, once again, they reflect the America of today. Stopping someone from filling out the forms, having a background check, and not allowing a man or woman to buy a Thompson Contender, a hunting pistol, will do virtually nothing to eliminate gun crime and mass shootings.

4) Social media surveillance is critical. Necessary resources should allocated for this purpose. Time after time it is discovered that a crazed shooter is responsible for posts indicating that he was contemplating or proclaiming violence, and once identified a multi agency approach should be instituted to minimize the threat.

5) Mental health issues. Why has our society, and in fact most of the world become so violent ? An actual maximum effort should be made to try and answer the question, then try and eliminate some of the causes

There is absolutely no doubt that for whatever the reason, mentally ill folk are allowed to be free in society. Anyone who would commit a mass shooting is severely mentally ill, deranged, and usually this was known before the incident.

I once was involved in stopping a young lady from jumping to her death from the top of a building. It was the second time this occurred. As usual, we sent her for a mental health evaluation at the appropriate hospital. She was released in each case after 72 hours. We begged the head of the psych unit to keep her and really help her. Because of lack of bed space, lack of funds, civil rights issues, etc., etc, she was released. A month later she obtained a gun, which she had no legal right to own, and killed herself. This scenario is played out regularly in the US, and instead of shooting themselves, some shoot others. This can and should be stopped.

You state that a firearms sole purpose is to kill. Utter nonsense. To kill people, or animals ? Still nonsense.

I have two single shot target rifles, that were designed for target competition, nothing else, ditto for some target pistols, that is what they were designed for. I have a beautiful over and under shotgun, designed for bird hunting. Since I am not a hunter, and don´t like to kill anything, I use it on large exploding type targets, great fun. It would be useful for home defense for my wife, if for some reason I am not at home.

Finally, there is the issue of the second amendment to the US Constitution. I don know if you are an American or not. Your ignorance regarding firearms would lead me to suspect not, but you certainly could be.

Firearm ownership is a right that cannot be removed, accept by an amendment to the Constitution, which will never happen, civil martial law, which I believe has never happened country wide, or a convention of the states, which has never happened.

You may hate it, rail against it, point out reasons why it should be eliminated and denied to the citizenry, but it is still my right. It is no more removable than your first amendment right to verbally trash the second amendment.

Penalizing the legal gun buyer will not deter those who want to kill with a gun. All the drug control laws have not deterred the illegal use of drugs. They have created unintended consequences. Folk who have very serious medical pain issues are having difficulty obtaining the medication they need. Physicians are limited as to how many scrips they write. Some patients do not pass the stringent government imposed test for pain meds, yet their docs believe they are needed. Many true pain patients are turning to the illegal market to try and get their medication.

The feel good restriction of legal gun buyers will be no different. Those bent on killing with a gun will obtain one, illegally, just as under current law those not qualified to own guns get them.
While I agree with much of your post, I disagree where the issues are.

I agree that mental health is an issue. I also think poverty is an issue. I think education is an issue. High poverty correlates to higher crime rates. Lower education correlates to higher crime rates. Address these three issues and I think you will have lower crime including violent crime and murder.

The simple truth is that plenty of people will oppose both implementing programs that address root causes of crime and then get upset when others suggest band-aid fixes such as gun control. If they cannot address the root cause, they will inevitably try for band-aid fixes that involve more regulation.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It has been the case since the Vietnam war.
But collateral damage within our country would be tolerated even less.
Just look at the national outcry whenever a black guy is wrongfully shot.

The number of times that "a black guy is wrongfully shot" might have a bit to do with that though....don't you think?

Usage in WW2 against Japan was of course brutal.
Do you believe that our government would use them within our
own borders to take down revolutionaries? I don't think so.

I wasn't really thinking of nuclear weapons so much, (even though there were many innocent people who were obliterated in those nuclear blasts in Japan)....because there are much more efficient means to take lives these days....if we knew what they had in their arsenal, we might be appalled. :( Science has provided many nations with the most evil weaponry we could imagine....even things we may never have considered could be weaponised.

Consider the backlash against government for the Waco incident.

Who even remembers Waco for any political backlash? Who cares about renegade religious cults anyway? If Jesus said that all who "live by the sword (gun) will die by the sword" then those in the Waco incident fulfilled scripture......they were armed to the teeth, so not following the teachings of Jesus in the first place. He taught his followers to 'love their enemies'.....you can't do that with weapons.

Many around me carry concealed handguns.
And none is the enemy.

It's not your mentally stable citizens that you hear about on the news though, is it? How do you know who is armed but mentally unstable? Or who could become unstable at any time, or for any reason? How could you ever go anywhere without fear?

How many more mass shootings will it take for your nation to admit that it's ridiculously high homicide rates are the direct result of its gun laws? :shrug:

But I don't advocate that everyone carry.

As long as there is an indoctrinated love of guns instilled in children, then your nation's obsession with guns will never go away. It's not the Wild West anymore. Guns create more problems than they solve.

Watching the youth of America demand an end to gun violence and virtually being ignored was just another tragedy.
Was nobody listening? :facepalm:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The number of times that "a black guy is wrongfully shot" might have a bit to do with that though....don't you think?
Yes, it matters more if the victim is black.
But kill enuf innocent white guys, & that will matter too.
I wasn't really thinking of nuclear weapons so much, (even though there were many innocent people who were obliterated in those nuclear blasts in Japan)....because there are much more efficient means to take lives these days....if we knew what they had in their arsenal, we might be appalled. :( Science has provided many nations with the most evil weaponry we could imagine....even things we may never have considered could be weaponised.
I included nukes simply as part of the military's arsenal of weapons which aren't small arms.
Who even remembers Waco for any political backlash?
I sure do.
Janet Reno sure does...or she would if she were still alive.
Who cares about renegade religious cults anyway?
I do.
Even religious nuts should be treated with great attention to their rights.
Moreover, children who were too young to be called such died in the raid.
If Jesus said that all who "live by the sword (gun) will die by the sword" then those in the Waco incident fulfilled scripture......they were armed to the teeth, so not following the teachings of Jesus in the first place. He taught his followers to 'love their enemies'.....you can't do that with weapons.
Collateral damage was a big problem when the government attacked.
I oppose callousness towards crazies, be they armed or not.
We should do what needs to be done with a minimum of carnage & coercion.
Alas, we've a country where a child can be arrested for refusing to say the Pledge Of Allegiance.
It's not your mentally stable citizens that you hear about on the news though, is it? How do you know who is armed but mentally unstable? Or who could become unstable at any time, or for any reason? How could you ever go anywhere without fear?
I go about without fear because the risk is so low.
It's not about having government assure me that everyone I meet is incapable of harm.
How many more mass shootings will it take for your nation to admit that it's ridiculously high homicide rates are the direct result of its gun laws? :shrug:
FYI, I've advocated changes to gun laws which I think would help.
As long as there is an indoctrinated love of guns instilled in children, then your nation's obsession with guns will never go away. It's not the Wild West anymore. Guns create more problems than they solve.

Watching the youth of America demand an end to gun violence and virtually being ignored was just another tragedy.
Was nobody listening? :facepalm:
Banning guns won't be our solution.
So we need workable changes in the law.
Alas, politicians never come to me for my proposals.
 

youknowme

Whatever you want me to be.
A simple correlation study between per capita gun ownership and gun homicide rate shows there is no connection between the two. A R^2 close to 1 would show a correlation and a R^2 closer to 0 would show there isn’t a correlation. The R^2 between guns per capita and firearm Homicide Rate is 0.0107. There is no correlation.

View attachment 27043
Pearson's R is the measure of a linear association. R squared gives the measure of variability in the response.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
And I would suggest that no understanding of the constitution or history gives way to the regulations already in force, let alone more regulation.

I think that anyone who might suggest that the U.S. or any other modern country is at risk of no longer existing without guns or with strict regilation of guns is exaggerating. That however does not mean that there is no risk or there will never be such a risk. Just not one worth discussing as a current possibility.

Well, then I would suggest that you advocate for an ammendment to the constitution. That is what should have been changed and that is what should be changed if we as a society want to regulate gun ownership. The problem is that we do mot want that as a society. A large group of us want that but not as a society. To me the issue is as simple as if someone were to suggest we outlaw or enforce some religion. Such a change is not worthy of consideration simply because a group of people feel it might make us safer.

We needn't reiterate or rehash our previous discussions but you should understand that what you want is akin to suggesting we ban or regulate Catholicism because of some priests transgressions.

I do advocate an amendment to the constitution. That's actually my preferred method of addressing this issue. If we want to prevent a corrupt government or invasion then I think there are better ways to approach this then simply guns or armament beyond guns.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
"As of July 27, 2018, there have been 2,372 U.S. military deaths in the War in Afghanistan. 1,856 of these deaths have been the result of hostile action. 20,320 American servicemembers have also been wounded in action during the war. In addition, there were 1,720 U.S. civilian contractor fatalities."
United States military casualties in the War in Afghanistan - Wikipedia

"During the war in Afghanistan (2001–present), over 31,000 civilian deaths due to war-related violence have been documented; 29,900 civilians have been wounded. Over 111,000 Afghans, including civilians, soldiers and militants, are estimated to have been killed in the conflict."
Civilian casualties in the war in Afghanistan (2001–present ...


LOL...now that is just funny. If everyone is carrying a weapon for self defense, then who is the enemy? Everyone else? What a sad and sick situation....



Yep......mostly semi-automatic weapons...
Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png




"Unamerican"? What is that? Is it the same as being "unaustralian"? I think not. I am very happy to be "un" whatever the world thinks is a good thing, but violates the laws of my God. I'd rather obey my God than obey man and offend him.

When have "better people" ever made anything "better" with violence? When has war ever ended war? When has violence ever ended violence.....I think you kid yourself. I know who will be boxed in by their own stupidity. Waco comes to mind....all in that compound were armed. Who won? We do not rely on weapons to make us feel secure....we have something so much more powerful....our faith.

When a government comes after its own citizens who are peaceful, law-abiding and unarmed, that says a lot about the people in government. But when the government goes after those who are armed and ready for a fight......guess who isn't going to be any threat to them?
From a Biblical perspective, JWś have no basis for their pacifism position. It is assumed that when Christ said if you are slapped on the cheek, turn the other one, He meant you are allow yourself to be a victim of violence. I once did a study of the number of times in the NT where the act of slapping was clearly identified as such. Not punched, or struck, or hit, but slapped, the Koine Greek word for slapped was used. I don´t recall the number, but it was quite a few times. Why ? Because in the culture of the time, one slapping another was a rude reminder of a persons senior position in society, or the assertion of such. It was equal to a rude gesture today. He was saying, don´t respond to insult. He wasn´t saying to allow yourself to be beaten to a pulp, to be a doormat.

Twice Christ lauded the faith of Roman centurions, military officers, and said one had the greatest faith in all of Judea. How could that be if one was to embrace pacifism ? Paul speaks of converts in the Roman leaders personal guard, certainly not pacifists.

Finally, when Christ was arrested, Peter was carrying a sword. Christ tells his disciples to buy swords.

A Christian who acts in self defense of himself or in the defense of others is following the Biblical model.

Doormat Christians can be so if they chose, they have that freedom, but they shouldn´t try and preach it as a Christian responsibility, they are in error.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
There is absolutely no doubt that for whatever the reason, mentally ill folk are allowed to be free in society. Anyone who would commit a mass shooting is severely mentally ill, deranged, and usually this was known before the incident.
we should all do a topic thread about sanity

you do read what people post here at the Forum......right?
 
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