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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to respond to a Muslim quoting a Rabbi's complaint about Christian doctrines.
    Maybe I will ask a Buddhist or a Hindu.
     
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  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel (Yechezkel) was a prophet who lived in Babylonia at the time of the destruction of the First Temple.

    So he lived after King David?????
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Reading the Bible like it is all a history book is a problem, as some of it is prophetic poetry using scatting across time, and thus we have to use keyword referencing to establish exegesis; not just guess on some historical whim.

    The prophets speak as a unified whole, and only by using Strongs numbers, can we see the levels of intertextuality needed to understand the code - if we consider humans created computer languages, using advanced layers of structuring, the Bible works the same.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what your computer remarks mean.. How did Ezekiel PREDICT King David after the fact?
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Prophecy by its very nature, means to predict the future.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So you made a claim that Israel was not referred to as male and I showed it wrong. Throughout Isaiah, the nation is explicitly identified with the servant (starting in 41:8) and when that image is used, the pronouns are masculine (when the image switches, the pronouns do -- follow the images and don't be led by pronouns). So when, in 53, there is reference to the same image, the same pronouns are masculine and the same object is the servant.The proper thing to do would be to acknowledge that maybe your position isn't so iron clad. But then you double down on old points.

    Maybe you should read up on how Israel, and not Jesus satisfies the various elements of Isaiah's prophecy. This isn't new stuff.
    The Suffering Servant
     
    #66 rosends, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  7. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Ha! He's a staunch "evangelical" supporter of Trump and was granted permission to give the closing benediction at the opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem. Not bad, ... for a crackpot, eh?
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading about him.. Is he crazy or just a con artist?
     
  9. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    You want me to comment on the sanity or the ethics of a man who is a "good ol' boy" from Texas, the spiritual leader of thousands, a long-time televangelist, a staunch "friend of Israel," and "supporter of Trump"? Not by the hair of my chinny-chin-chin.
     
  10. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The Suffering Servant is also the Sensible Slave in Mathew 24, of the New Testament. He prepares the way for the second coming of Christ. The sensible slave has to maintain his focus, since he is not perfect. He is a son of man and not a son of God. He has a job to do, but he is also human and not perfect. He is a slave and not a free man.

    In Mathew 24; 45-51,
    In Isaiah 53, the suffering servant is not someone anyone would expect. He has no stately form. Instead he is plain and acquainted with grief. He is someone who is avoided and ignored.

    In Isaiah 50-1

    This quote from Isaiah says the mother of the servant was sent away. This precludes Jesus being the Suffering servant, since Mary was always with Jesus.

    The suffering servant and sensible slave is also the White Horseman. In Mathew 24, the time of the coming is one where hearts will grow cold and there is conflict and war. The White Horseman has a bow and arrow and gold crown on his head. He is able to reach the hearts of man; Cupid, from a distance, while passing in safety. He is does not initially have a sword for close fighting.


    The sword, for in fighting, comes later, when the servant transitioned into the persona of the Red Horseman.

    Malachi 3:2

     
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  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores ,

    I hear you. My personal opinion is this:

    The most compelling reasons for a person to believe Jesus Christ is THE LORD are the stories in the New Testament and the Resurrection. What you and @wizanda are saying about the Old Testament is interesting, but, it is not very convincing.

    My question is:

    Why dwell on the Old Testament if it is not strong convincing evidence that Jesus is LORD?
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I respect you, and respect your opinion and your knowledge...

    But I was not aware that Joseph had a son named Joshua.

    Am I translating wrong, or forgetting something?
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I thought the switch was to refer to Israel in the feminine and god her bridegroom.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Joshua Ben Joseph and Jesus of Nazareth. Joshua ben Joseph was Jesus' given name at birth, he grew up being known as Joshua (son of Joseph). He was only later called Jesus by the Greeks, Jesus being the Greek form of Joshua. Throughout Part IV of The Urantia Book, you will see the name Joshua and the name Jesus even in the same paragraph.
     
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  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Thank you! **That** Joseph....
     
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  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I think Isa 53 was resolved @dybmh gave a very important pivotal point.
    I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus.

    Yeshayah 53 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

    Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero’a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?

    For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.

    He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].

    But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

    He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see v.12] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) nega (plague cf Ps 91:10) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Ps 11:7 and Job 22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen 9:26-27; Deut 33:2; Isa 44:15; also compare Divrey Hayamim Alef 21:17]).

    And he made his kever (grave) with the resha’im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]

    Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.

    He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach’s] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).

    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi’a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].

    upload_2019-4-10_21-35-59.jpeg

    Owww!
    This is what looks like when Asian people start talking Yiddish
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    But Ezekiel and Jeremiah were born AFTER David was king.. DETAILS matter.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I always find it funny when people quote the "OJB" as if it has any place in Judaism. It is a Christian text which " applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Useless.

    I also note that you wrote "I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus." And you say this even though I have shown you that the nation is, in many places, referred to in the masculine.
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Because Jesus said:

    Matthew 13:52 New International Version (NIV)
    He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.

    new treasures are new testament scriptures and the old treasures are old testament scriptures

    John 5:39 New International Version (NIV)
    You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
     
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  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    IMO.. Its wrong for Christians to hijack and change the meaning of scripture.. As a Christian its not something to be proud of.
     
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