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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I always find it funny when people quote the "OJB" as if it has any place in Judaism. It is a Christian text which " applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Useless.

I also note that you wrote "I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus." And you say this even though I have shown you that the nation is, in many places, referred to in the masculine.

Yes in Hosea, Israel is masculine
But in other prophets like Jeremiah, Israel is a girl.
Like Gal Gadot.
upload_2019-4-10_21-58-2.jpeg


Example:

Jeremiah 31:31-32 New International Version (NIV)

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah
.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Yes in Hosea, Israel is masculine
But in other prophets like Jeremiah, Israel is a girl.
Like Gal Gadot.
And in Isaiah, the nation is also in the masculine. Is. 41:8
וְאַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל עַבְדִּ֔י יַעֲקֹ֖ב אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּחַרְתִּ֑יךָ

note the repeated use of the masculine and the explicit naming of Israel. You are being led by pronouns and not by the images int he text. God is spoken of both in the masculine and feminine. It depends on the context, so you can't look at the pronouns and say that they determine the context -- they respond to it.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
But Ezekiel and Jeremiah were born AFTER David was king.. DETAILS matter.
Judaism accepts reincarnation, and the resurrection of all the saints (Deuteronomy 30:3-4); so David coming back is expected in the Messianic Age (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Jeremiah 23:5).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I always find it funny when people quote the "OJB" as if it has any place in Judaism. It is a Christian text which " applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Useless.

I also note that you wrote "I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus." And you say this even though I have shown you that the nation is, in many places, referred to in the masculine.


Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah ...
Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah 31:10?...
The central answer to this question is that "Israel" is always "masculine, singular" in biblical Hebrew.

The Hebrew Bible does not know a feminine Israel. The dictionaries consistently and coherently give the gender of Israel as masculine. In the tradition the word 'Israel' names a people.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Judaism accepts reincarnation, and the resurrection of all the saints (Deuteronomy 30:3-4); so David coming back is expected in the Messianic Age (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Jeremiah 23:5).

In my opinion. :innocent:

I haven't seen any support for the return of King David.

Meanwhile,

  1. Woman as Symbol of Israel (Forerunner Commentary)
    https://www.bibletools.org/.../ID/3582/Woman-as-Symbol-of-Israel-.htm
    The nation of Israel is symbolically referred to throughout the chapter. In verse 1, Israel is described as a Woman clothed with the sun and moon and wearing a crown of stars. Tying the symbols to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 confirms the Woman's identity.

  2. Why is Israel referred to as he and she in different parts ...
    www.tapatalk.com › … › Counter-Missionary Forum
    Israel represents a loftier state of being than Jacob (thus the Israel element in Jacob is "no longer Jacob"), but Jacob had some qualities that are retained, so Jacob remains a name for both the third Patriarch and for the Jewish people as a whole.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
@wizanda are saying about the Old Testament is interesting, but, it is not very convincing.
Please explain what isn't convincing from your perspective, and what isn't fully comprehended?
Why dwell on the Old Testament if it is not strong convincing evidence that Jesus is LORD?
The Tanakh makes clear the world has already been convinced of a lie, as they don't honour the Law, Lord and prophets...

So the whole thing is an elaborate test, which catches out all the hypocrites who don't look at the full perspective; a Muslim only really reads the Quran, a Christian New Testament and Rabbinic Jews the Talmud, etc, so all have failed in someway.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The dictionaries consistently and coherently give the gender of Israel as masculine. In the tradition the word 'Israel' names a people.
I remember it a little differently. I'm not contradicting you; I am supporting you.

I think of Israel ( masculine ) as a nation. The community of Israel is feminine, I think.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Please explain what isn't convincing from your perspective, and what isn't fully comprehended?
Primarily it's the equivalency between names. I don't find it convincing. It doesn't take root, to continue the shoresh metaphor. I accept the possibility that what you are talking about is true. But it doesn't feel true. Does that make sense?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I remember it a little differently. I'm not contradicting you; I am supporting you.

I think of Israel ( masculine ) as a nation. The community of Israel is feminine, I think.

I posted three links.. Israel referred to as Masculine .. Israel referred to as Feminine.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I haven't seen any support for the return of King David.
When posting verses, they're generally contextual; thus already shown overwhelming evidence it is an expectation (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc.) .
Israel is described as a Woman
The Messiah marries Israel (Isaiah 61:10, Isaiah 62:5); which is why Yeshua told the Wedding Parables.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Primarily it's the equivalency between names. I don't find it convincing.
Understood, and I'd not accept just finding a name in the Tanakh convincing...

This is a detailed explanation by the prophets, with a clear case presented by Moses, David, Isaiah; where we don't need the New Testament to show it all exists.
But it doesn't feel true. Does that make sense?
It is best not to do beliefs (eisegesis); this is a very specific case, that takes patience, and careful investigation to understand in detail (exegesis).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
And in Isaiah, the nation is also in the masculine. Is. 41:8
וְאַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל עַבְדִּ֔י יַעֲקֹ֖ב אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּחַרְתִּ֑יךָ

note the repeated use of the masculine and the explicit naming of Israel. You are being led by pronouns and not by the images int he text. God is spoken of both in the masculine and feminine. It depends on the context, so you can't look at the pronouns and say that they determine the context -- they respond to it.

This one?
Isaiah 41:8 New International Version (NIV)
“But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob
, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,

That is Jacob, now I have to review those Israel [masculine] they might be referring to Jacob that is why it is masculine.

Jeremiah 3:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense,” declares the Lord.

Here Israel is pictured as an unfaithful wife together with her sister Judah.
See the pronouns HER?
Israel and Judah are described as insatiable whores because of their adulteries.

And you know what?
the Lord God said he is going to establish a new covenant with Israel and Judah.
Do you know when will that be?
Or you guys keep on waiting on the bus stop?
images
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Or you guys keep on waiting on the bus stop?
Most respectfully: The person in the picture you posted appears to be actively involved in spiritual pursuits. This person does not appear to be simply waiting for a bus.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isn't this about God marrying Israel? No mention of the Messiah. An anointed warrior king wouldn't marry the country.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I remember it a little differently. I'm not contradicting you; I am supporting you.

I think of Israel ( masculine ) as a nation. The community of Israel is feminine, I think.

Jerusalem is feminine.. Israel seems to be masculine.

Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah ...
Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah 31:10?...
The central answer to this question is that "Israel" is always "masculine, singular" in biblical Hebrew. The Hebrew Bible does not know a feminine Israel. The dictionaries consistently and coherently give the gender of Israel as masculine. In the tradition the word 'Israel' names a people.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
This one?
Isaiah 41:8 New International Version (NIV)
“But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob
, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,

That is Jacob, now I have to review those Israel [masculine] they might be referring to Jacob that is why it is masculine.
You are so close to understanding and yet then you veer off.
The nation of Israel is compared to a variety of things and referred to in many ways. Some of these ways are masculine, some are feminine. When Israel is compared to a wife, then the pronouns follow the image and are feminine. When the nation is compared to a son, then the pronouns are masculine. When the nation is referred to directly and not compared to anything, the default position is to use the masculine (partially because the word for nation- "am" is a masculine noun, and partially because the nation is associated with the patriarch Jacob/Israel).

In Isaiah, one of the images is of a slave (masculine, eved), so the pronouns are masculine. Insisting that because elsewhere, the image is feminine, these masculine pronouns must be pointing to something else is seriously false.
 
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