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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Yes in Hosea, Israel is masculine
    But in other prophets like Jeremiah, Israel is a girl.
    Like Gal Gadot.
    upload_2019-4-10_21-58-2.jpeg

    Example:

    Jeremiah 31:31-32 New International Version (NIV)

    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah
    .
    It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to them,”
    declares the Lord.
     
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  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    And in Isaiah, the nation is also in the masculine. Is. 41:8
    וְאַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל עַבְדִּ֔י יַעֲקֹ֖ב אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּחַרְתִּ֑יךָ

    note the repeated use of the masculine and the explicit naming of Israel. You are being led by pronouns and not by the images int he text. God is spoken of both in the masculine and feminine. It depends on the context, so you can't look at the pronouns and say that they determine the context -- they respond to it.
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Judaism accepts reincarnation, and the resurrection of all the saints (Deuteronomy 30:3-4); so David coming back is expected in the Messianic Age (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Jeremiah 23:5).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah ...
    Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah 31:10?...
    The central answer to this question is that "Israel" is always "masculine, singular" in biblical Hebrew.

    The Hebrew Bible does not know a feminine Israel. The dictionaries consistently and coherently give the gender of Israel as masculine. In the tradition the word 'Israel' names a people.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I haven't seen any support for the return of King David.

    Meanwhile,

    1. Woman as Symbol of Israel (Forerunner Commentary)
      https://www.bibletools.org/.../ID/3582/Woman-as-Symbol-of-Israel-.htm
      The nation of Israel is symbolically referred to throughout the chapter. In verse 1, Israel is described as a Woman clothed with the sun and moon and wearing a crown of stars. Tying the symbols to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 confirms the Woman's identity.

    2. Why is Israel referred to as he and she in different parts ...
      www.tapatalk.com › … › Counter-Missionary Forum
      Israel represents a loftier state of being than Jacob (thus the Israel element in Jacob is "no longer Jacob"), but Jacob had some qualities that are retained, so Jacob remains a name for both the third Patriarch and for the Jewish people as a whole.
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Please explain what isn't convincing from your perspective, and what isn't fully comprehended?
    The Tanakh makes clear the world has already been convinced of a lie, as they don't honour the Law, Lord and prophets...

    So the whole thing is an elaborate test, which catches out all the hypocrites who don't look at the full perspective; a Muslim only really reads the Quran, a Christian New Testament and Rabbinic Jews the Talmud, etc, so all have failed in someway.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I remember it a little differently. I'm not contradicting you; I am supporting you.

    I think of Israel ( masculine ) as a nation. The community of Israel is feminine, I think.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Primarily it's the equivalency between names. I don't find it convincing. It doesn't take root, to continue the shoresh metaphor. I accept the possibility that what you are talking about is true. But it doesn't feel true. Does that make sense?
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I posted three links.. Israel referred to as Masculine .. Israel referred to as Feminine.
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Yes. I see that now. Thanks.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Looks like gender pronouns change with the metaphor.
     
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  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    When posting verses, they're generally contextual; thus already shown overwhelming evidence it is an expectation (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc.) .
    The Messiah marries Israel (Isaiah 61:10, Isaiah 62:5); which is why Yeshua told the Wedding Parables.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Understood, and I'd not accept just finding a name in the Tanakh convincing...

    This is a detailed explanation by the prophets, with a clear case presented by Moses, David, Isaiah; where we don't need the New Testament to show it all exists.
    It is best not to do beliefs (eisegesis); this is a very specific case, that takes patience, and careful investigation to understand in detail (exegesis).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    This one?
    Isaiah 41:8 New International Version (NIV)
    “But you, Israel, my servant,
    Jacob
    , whom I have chosen,
    you descendants of Abraham my friend,

    That is Jacob, now I have to review those Israel [masculine] they might be referring to Jacob that is why it is masculine.

    Jeremiah 3:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
    I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense,” declares the Lord.

    Here Israel is pictured as an unfaithful wife together with her sister Judah.
    See the pronouns HER?
    Israel and Judah are described as insatiable whores because of their adulteries.

    And you know what?
    the Lord God said he is going to establish a new covenant with Israel and Judah.
    Do you know when will that be?
    Or you guys keep on waiting on the bus stop?
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Most respectfully: The person in the picture you posted appears to be actively involved in spiritual pursuits. This person does not appear to be simply waiting for a bus.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

    Isn't this about God marrying Israel? No mention of the Messiah. An anointed warrior king wouldn't marry the country.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    So who marries Israel in the Messianic Age? The Messiah!

    God is always the Source of reality.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Jerusalem is feminine.. Israel seems to be masculine.

    Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah ...
    Why is Israel referred to with a male pronoun in Jeremiah 31:10?...
    The central answer to this question is that "Israel" is always "masculine, singular" in biblical Hebrew. The Hebrew Bible does not know a feminine Israel. The dictionaries consistently and coherently give the gender of Israel as masculine. In the tradition the word 'Israel' names a people.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You are so close to understanding and yet then you veer off.
    The nation of Israel is compared to a variety of things and referred to in many ways. Some of these ways are masculine, some are feminine. When Israel is compared to a wife, then the pronouns follow the image and are feminine. When the nation is compared to a son, then the pronouns are masculine. When the nation is referred to directly and not compared to anything, the default position is to use the masculine (partially because the word for nation- "am" is a masculine noun, and partially because the nation is associated with the patriarch Jacob/Israel).

    In Isaiah, one of the images is of a slave (masculine, eved), so the pronouns are masculine. Insisting that because elsewhere, the image is feminine, these masculine pronouns must be pointing to something else is seriously false.
     
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