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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    When I look at different religions, it reminds me of buses.
    upload_2019-4-10_23-43-8.jpeg

    Catholics are riding on the bus with a molesting driver and heading for the cliff.
    Protestants are riding on the bus with a reckless driver who had a personal relationship with the bus.
    Muslims are riding on the bus with a driver who is always shouting "Allāhu akbar"
    Jews are not riding on the bus, still waiting for the bus even though a bus passed by.
    Hindus and Buddhist are not riding the bus, and doesn't care about the bus.
    Atheists are not riding the bus, because they do not believe that the bus exist.
    Agnostics are not riding the bus, because they are not sure about the bus.

    Just my views.
     
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  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 32:28 New International Version (NIV)
    Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

    Just remembered this. Israel = Jacob before.
    It is like Bill Clinton = William Jefferson Blythe III before

    But I will check on it.
    Don't know much of Hebrew because I am Asian.
    Like this guy...

     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, biblically, God's changing someone's name is not like taking on the surname of your mother's new husband. New names often indicate a change in status and there are many different rules about how and when we use new vs. "old" names.
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Food for thought... The Muslim bus driver is saying, "God is Great".

    I am guessing you agree? You think God is Great, right?

    And forgive me for being bold, but, when reading your posts I detect a similar enthusiasm between you and the fictional Muslim bus driver in your metaphor.
     
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The "all of us" is, as @sooda explained
    Isaiah 53 is a prophecy foretelling how the world will react when they witness Israel's salvation in the Messianic era. The verses are presented from the perspective of world leaders, who contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with their new realization of Israel's grandeur. After realizing how unfairly they treated the Jewish people, they will be shocked and speechless.​

    The "him" is again as the OP says
    One obvious question that needs to be addressed: How can the “Suffering Servant,” which the verses refer to grammatically in the singular, be equated with the entire Jewish nation?

    The Jewish people are consistently referred to with the singular pronoun.

    This question evaporates when we discover that throughout the Bible, the Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity, using the singular pronoun.
     
  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Actually, you can see from here that the masculine singular is already in use before the root metaphor comes into play. The first word "ויעל" (and he rose) is already in the masculine singular.
     
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  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Don't bother:

    Ex. 19:2
    ויחן שם ישראל נגד ההר
    And Israel camped (singular, masculine) there, opposite the mountain.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    @MJFlores

    Here's another example of Israel being addressed as a single entity,

    Hosea 11:1 1"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
     
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  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are right we have that similar enthusiasm.
    The difference is when I say "Purihin ang Dios" [Praise the Lord] no one has that strange urge to run.

     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    My point is this: Your Bus-Metaphor is a little bit flawed.

    For Muslims, they say God is Great while praying, and you are misrepresenting it in your Bus-Metaphor. You portray those words as a battle cry. This implies that all Muslims are Terrorists. The implication is a bit offensive.

    The Bus-Metaphor is also flawed regarding Jewish people.

    Your claim that they are waiting for the bus implies that Jewish people are not actively involved in spiritual pursuits. This implication is less offensive, but it does expose your ignorance based on the picture you posted.

    Please tell me you don't actually stereotype people like this.

    You are aware that all Muslims are not Terrorists? Right?

    You are aware that a young person dressed like the person in the picture, and carrying a square bag like that might be someone on this website answering your questions? Right?
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Yes read it start to end and notice the structure.

    Isaiah starts with God's people in sin and God pleading with them
    Isaiah ends with God's people holy
    and how one gets from being a sinner to holy is a key issue in the book.

    In Isaiah 6, the prophet Isaiah has sinful lips and dwells among a sinful people
    they need a savior, dull in heart and not listening in context.

    the book of consolation, Isaiah 40 though 66, promises deliverance in 3 sections
    Isaiah 40 - 48 promises salvation ending with 'there is no peace for the wicked'
    The salvation is freedom from Babylon

    Isaiah 49 - 57 promises salvation ending with 'there is no peace for the wicked'
    The salvation is freedom from sin venter sections are Isaiah 52 53

    Isaiah 58 - 66 promises salvation ending with a judgement of the wicked
    The salvation is eschatological and forever

    The center chapters of the center section would be Isaiah 32 and 53 and answer the
    question of how a sinner gets forgiven and it is though the suffering servant
    The center verse is 'he was pierced for our transgressions'

    Bottom line, it takes a sinless spotless lamb, a sinless messiah to suffer and die in place of another. Someone suffering for themselves doesn't fit the text or context. And it is a work of the Lord

    Isaiah 52:3
    For thus says the Lord: “You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money.”

    Isaiah 52:9
    Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem.
     
    #111 whirlingmerc, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    What I find interesting is the view that "Israel is the servant spoken of" effectively is claiming
    that Israel doesn't have a sin problem, doesn't need a savior, is righteous, humble (and voluntarily suffered?) and the kind of messiah king needed is just someone who sympathizes with Israel and reward Israel's righteousness.

    I don't see Isaiah taking that view at all. "All your acts of righteousness are as filthy rags" and "The Lord's arm is not so short that it cannot save but your iniquities have made a barrier" It is ultimately the Lord who will bring forgiveness and in fact the appeal to how Abraham was righteous in Isaiah 51 is an appeal to look at how "Abraham believed God and was counted righteous" counted is gifted not earned as Paul wrote in the book of Romans.

    The arm is spoken of in Isaiah 53 and reiterated in 59
    "...The LORD saw it and it displeased him that there was no justice He saw that there was no man and wondered that there was no one to intercede then his own arm brought him salvation and his righteousness upheld him...." The work is God's not man's

    In face 'the arm of the Lord" is a major theme of the book of Psalms and placed in exactly the right places to point to salvation in Jesus
    The Right Hand of God in the Psalms
     
    #112 whirlingmerc, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That's my point. No offense to them; but they aren't fit to be a sacrifice to bear anyone's sins. And even though their Rabbis may tell them that all Jews are righteous and all Jews will be saved; that's not in the scriptures anywhere.

    As for me; I know that whether Jew or gentile we must all face the judgment seat of God and so we need a sacrifice. Jews do not teach that anyone needs a sacrifice except for minor infringements which is the only sacrifices that Moses offers them. It shouldn't be ignored by anyone that God demands no animal sacrifice for great sins; and yet promises to forgive them for His own sake. (Isaiah 43:25) But, we know that major sins cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice. And the blood of bulls and goats will not suffice.

    That means God himself must be a sacrifice for sins; or else there is no hope of forgiveness. For how can God logically demand the killing of animals for small infringements but just forgive major infringements without any blood?

    Of course Abraham says it before the other prophets in the Bible "God will provide a lamb" and so they named the mountain after what Abraham said.

    And that's all there is to say. There was no blood or sacrifice since the world began that could truly do away with sin. Unless Isaiah 53 speaks of a Savior indeed; then the world and the Jewish nation also is doomed.
     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I have friends who are Muslims.
    I do business with Muslims.
    I had students who are Muslims
    Filipino Muslims could handle a joke.
    I believe all Muslims can handle their own jokes.



    My Muslim friends say that Muslims who could not handle jokes are humorless Muslims
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In those verses Isaiah is talking about the return from Babylon..
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores ,

    Here's the thing:

    If you want it to be a joke, and humorous, you need to include yourself in the joke.

    I'm not saying I didn't understand you were joking. But I was a little concerned.

    Question:

    What's the harm in being a little more sensitive?
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Being a little more sensitive would show you don't hang a lot with Muslims like I do.
    They are just like us funny.
    Some aren't so beware with that.



    Even in the US they laugh things about themselves.
    But you know, people just can't start black jokes, you need a brother to do that
    Same is true with them.
    Its a culture thing.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Well... at least I know you are joking :)
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    So what do you thing Isa 53 was about?
    1. Israel or
    2. Jesus Christ
     
  20. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The issue is sin and Isaiah starts the same way the song of Moses which concerns Israel's future rebellion starts 'listen oh heavens and hear oh earth'

    English Standard Version
    “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

    In the start it is definitely sin
    In the end it is to be right with God and living with God

    I see it in a sense as a fulfillment of the great mountain imagery in the bible
    The mountain (seen as Sinai) is oppressive with thunder and only Moses can go up for 40 days while people cannot go with him to this holy place
    Then the mount (seen as Jerusalem) is accessible and people dwell there and worship there with God
    Ultimately picturing the sin barrier death death with.

    Yes IN PART it deals with freedom from Babylon. Whether Babylon or Egypt as the minor prophets point to there will be a second exodus where God shows their sins into the depths of the sea
     
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