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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Psalms 20:5-9 Those anointed who trust in the Salvation (H3444) that comes from God, and not in man; who call on the true essence of God when the Holy Fire comes, will be here after.

    The demons (Rephaim) will fall on that day, and not rise again (Isaiah 26:14); whereas those who accept the true King can stay in reality (Isaiah 33:11-22).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    If I'm translating, I'm generally trying to give the easiest word possible, applicable in the most applications.

    I agree in some of the floods a Tsunami could be a literal definition of what took place, and thus a form of smothering with water is applied.

    There was a verse i just looked at where they ransacked a wall, and it made sense they flooded it or smothered it in English; so what you're saying makes sense - thank you for the perspective.
    Yes will have a look if you tag me, always willing to question.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Now for answer your 2 statements about Isaiah - it may shock you.

    I will show you that the prophet Isaiah and the Lord God addresses his chosen ones in the future with a specific location.

    Isaiah 11:11 New International Version (NIV)
    In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

    This particular verse was fulfilled after the Lord Jesus was taken up to heaven
    and the apostles preached the gospel

    [​IMG]

    The map clearly shows where the apostles propagated the Lord Jesus Christ church and thus was the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11 -this is the extent of the First Century Church of Christ.

    Isaiah 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
    Therefore in the east give glory to the Lord;
    exalt the name of the Lord, the God of Israel,
    in the islands of the sea.

    mapeast.jpg
    The center would be Israel
    The Islands west of Israel would be the Mediterranean Greek Islands, Crete and Malta
    Where is the Lord God of Israel is exalted in the east islands of the sea?
    It would be the Philippines!
    The Philippines is being referred to in Isaiah 24:15 which Isaiah wrote in the 8th century BCE.
    Amazing! Our Lord God is awesome!

    Psalm 47:2 New International Version (NIV)
    For the Lord Most High is awesome,
    the great King over all the earth.
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Thank you for this. I will spend some time reviewing it. It is very very cool.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores ,

    Gotta say, man. I just re-read Isaiah Chap 11. And I got chills.

    Thanks again :)
     
  6. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The Servant of Isaiah is the same as the sensible slave that Jesus speaks of in the New Testament. The servant is not Israel or Jesus. Jesus is the master of that slave or servant.

    Jesus gives a few hints. He says that John; youngest apostle, will remain until he returns. Jesus does not say John will not die, but rather he will remain until he returns. John will go on to see Jesus coming in a Vision. John then writes his vision in Revelations.

    Jesus treats John as a baby brother, telling Mary and John to accept each other as mother and son. In the Suffering Servant, the mother of the Servant is sent away. The Servant reunites with a mother, via Mary. John will come a second time, after dies. The Servant is a type of mental reincarnation of John; visionary.

    One key to understanding this is to address Satan. Satan is not thrown from Heaven until the prophesy of Revelation, which were written by John, decades after the death of Jesus. This means Satan had a voice and authority in heaven up to these prophesy. In the old Testament, Satan was like a chief operating officer or CEO, for God. Satan was charge of the earth and humans up to his dismissal in Revelations.

    The atrocities of the old Testament, including eye for an eye, was part of Satan's authority as CEO, on behalf of God. Satan was in paradise during the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree symbolizes law. Satan wrote many of the laws of the Old Testament, as CEO. This is sanctioned by God, by his presence in Heaven and his access to God. This relationship between Satan and God, does not change until years after the Resurrection of Jesus. While Jesus was alive on earth, even Jesus was confronted with the sanctioned authority of Satan.

    During the temptation of Jesus, by Satan in the wilderness, Satan offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the nations if he would bow down and serve Satan. Satan was in charge of all the earthy things like power and wealth at that time. Jesus never denies Satan has this authority. If Jesus had accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah expected in the old Testament; powerful, rich and able to conquer all the enemies of Israel. Satan offers him that.

    However, Jesus refuses the offer. Jesus was not accepted by Israel as the Messiah, because he refused all the expected flash and bling; authority under the CEO Satan. Jesus chooses a different path which would supersede Satan. Not too long later, Satan's power is cut off in heaven and Satan is cast to the earth. The power of Satan remains, but he is no longer sanctioned by heaven. This transition of Satan, from the seat of heavenly power, will become the suffering for the suffering servant.

    When Satan was allowed in Heaven; old testament, his influence, such as the violence, in ancient times, was allowable. He was like a natural impulse, similar to natural instinct; sanctioned by Heaven. Nobody get upset if the lion kills to eat. This was treated the same way.

    But when Satan is dispatched from Heaven, the same actions, are no longer the same in terms of being sanctioned as natural instinct; survival of the fittest. The suffering Servant sees this, but it is not clear how one is to proceed from there, since traditions once sanctioned by Heaven, no longer works for God.

    The analogy is say a you work for a large corporation. The CEO is well liked and personable. You like your job and believe the company is at its prime; Rome. The board of directors fires the CEO and replaces him with a new person. The old CEO is still the same person, with the same ideas, but he is no longer sanctioned by the board as the CEO.

    Mixed loyalties will result, with many employees refusing to cooperate with the new CEO. They want things to stay the same, as when Satan was sanctioned by God. This was the glory days. The sensible slave will follow the new decision of the board; heaven, but this creates problem for him at work. His station as a slave; low level employee, requires he go along with the employee strike. Yet he sees the future and has to convince all, of the benefits of a future, that is not yet visible.

    The servant will bear their iniquities, since their heart is right with respect to a once optimized known; past and present, but are blindly opposed to the better future they cannot yet see. The branch and root of Jesse has to grow and evolve to be able to give them their food at the proper time. But this path is without rewards, thanks and even direction, so he is often tempted to stop and become one of the guys who lives in the moment. But he heeds the warning.

    When Satan is thrown from heaven, he pursues the Divine woman who gives birth to a son who is caught up to the throne of God. Mary's new son, as sanctioned by Jesus, is John; spirit of John. The Divine woman is the soul of the Servant; his patience and wisdom. His soul is stuck in a state of suspension, pursed by Satan; old ways, until one day he finds his place. He is eventually lifted up, and made to stand on two feet as a man, with a human mind; White Horseman.
     
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  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Well, the OP here is a Christian whose position it is that it's Israel. And I think you will find more than just that one. As well as a startling number of atheists who believe it to be Israel.

    Jesus had a mouth
    opened it.
    Hence Isaiah 53 disqualifies Jesus twice from being the suffering servant.

    No, that's how you interpret our Tanach. I'm just applying your method to the verse.
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Look, I know we've hashed through a lot of this in the past when I've had more time and energy to play around with you. I don't think there's any common ground between me and someone who blithely unaware of historical and current antisemitism that can be found without the help of a psychologist.
     
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  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No, it's not. it's Israel. And I'm not really sure why you'd think I'd be interested in reading the following sermon you've provided sources out of the fabrications of the NT.
     
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Common ground comes from trying to understand alternate perspectives, and to reason things out.

    Since not found you trying to understand the Tanakh properly, we won't find common ground.
    Wow thank God was sent back before the Messianic Age to tests for hypocrites.

    Was going to add at the end of our last post, 'please be aware you are answering for the Jewish people' - your answer is condescending, and unacceptable.
    The idea of having very little clue about prophecy globally, which i was taught by God as a child, before ever reading your books...

    Then you have the audacity to call the person with the name of the Messiah insane - good luck with Judgement day soon.

    Still got to show the fallacies presented on the forum by fake Jews standing against the Tanakh - which is prophesied here:

    Revelation 3:9-12 Behold, I give some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (10) Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (11) I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. (12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Idiomatic expression.

     
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