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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Then you would know that he's speaking of Israel being the servant of God.
     
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah is sealed. It can't be understood by anyone; unless God shows the meaning. (see 1 Corinthians 2:9-11) That's clear from Isaiah's commission as a prophet in Isaiah chapter 6 where God informs Isaiah that they will hear but they will not understand and in Isaiah 29:10-14; they will not understand the
    "vision" again and the wisdom of "their wise men" will be what leads them astray. Because they trust in men and not God.

    If you don't understand it; you should pray for God to show you the truth. Don't let the traditions of men or the wisdom of the wise --so called-- prevent you.

    Jesus is the true Israel as I've said before.

    As Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the nation is often referred to in the singular masculine (check Hoshea 14:6 and 7 where the masculine verbs are used). In Hoshea 11:1 the nation is called a "son" which is pretty male. Judges 20:17 also calls the nation as a whole "ish yisrael" the man, Israel. Ezekiel 34:31 uses the singular (masculine) Adam for the nation.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    That's nonsense.

    They had schools for prophets.. They were NOT fortune tellers.
     
  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Then you ignore what the book of Isaiah says about itself and the new Testament agrees with.
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    No one said they are fortune tellers either. Fortune tellers are demonic. They tell people's fortune for money and they consort with demons unless they're an outright fraud. In which case they don't consort with anything. Definitely not God.
     
  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Make sense for Hosea 14:6-7 and Hosea 11:1
    But not for Judges 20:17 and Ezekiel 34:31
    But then again, the previous verses I have shown depicts Israel as she, wife, her, harlot etc.
    I think it would be on the context of Isa 53 in relation with the preceding chapter Isa 52


    Isaiah 52:13-15 New International Version (NIV)
    See, my servant will act wisely;
    he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
    Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
    his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
    and his form marred beyond human likeness—

    so he will sprinkle many nations,
    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
    For what they were not told, they will see,
    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

    upload_2019-4-10_9-49-16.jpeg

    How would Israel top this?????


    Isaiah 53:4-9 New International Version (NIV)
    4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,

    so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.



    It is definitely the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    if you @ me in a post, I'll read it and reply. That will get me involved in the discussion -- it will also have me replying to the remarks he makes in what you quote about him, since I'll see interesting things and use the back arrow to find the post.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Psalms 89:19-21 Then you spoke in vision to your saints, and said, “I have given strength to the warrior. I have exalted a young man from the people. (20) I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm (Isaiah 52:10-Isaiah 53:1) will also strengthen him.

    Isaiah 52:13-14 Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.


    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Interesting review of the perspective of scripture from the Christian and Jewish perspective.

    Both Judaism and Christianity are focused on their own view of their identity as the religion that represents the relationship between God and humanity, and fails to consider a universal perspective of the understanding the relationship God and Humanity.
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its a good idea to do so. On this quotation I think some distortion is due to time and many deaths, but there are as you point out many who try to grasp for literalist arguments and jam this square peg into a round hole.

    One thing I notice is that this has happened multiple times already, and I think its a story not of some singular future event but of a process that the prophet sees happening in the past multiple times. I think at the time of Ezra they had already experienced it recently. Europe experienced this recently, too. Parts of the USA have recently.

    Its true that promoters of Christianity often do this, but there is leap from that to saying its how Jesus came to be associated with the suffering servant text. Its plain in Isaiah who the suffering servant is, and therefore the gospel writer must be alluding to the Jewish martyrs and possibly all martyrs when he writes about Jesus no matter what modern promoters of Christianity are saying about it. They can't unwrite Isaiah, yet somehow they reverse him.

    Missionaries do say Jesus lives a sinless life and thus is the messiah. Its poor scholarship. I'm not going to defend it. I can say that while you make a salient point its in a way a straw argument, since the things that missionaries say today aren't what they have always been saying. Your argument applies to our time and to our Jesus, but for the sake of clarity its only applicable in contexts where people make this silly argument. The main problem with this argument is that it depends upon an NT that explains Judaism and Christianity both, and the NT is not intended for this purpose. If it were we wouldn't be hearing so many denials of the Jews being the suffering servant.

    This was part of your reply to MJFlores. There is a mistake in the article where it claims "NT writers frequently quote it to explain the cross..." which is not true. Perhaps missionaries quote it to misexplain some things, but the NT writers are not explaining anything. The NT writers have no idea that their writings will be translated in two millennia to English and transmitted to an ignorant group of new readers unfamiliar with Judaism and its reference system, suddenly mass produced on printing machines and mistaken for an explanation of anything.

    I must point out that this prophet or these writers of Isaiah all know the text of Deuteronomy and chapter 30 which suggests that these things happen multiple times not only one time. Therefore when it says "He grew like a sapling or a root from dry ground" it must be referring to multiple events, but if it refers only to a single event then which one is it? I would assume the one happening in the prophet's time; but its almost certain it refers to every time Jews are exiled or oppressed. Similarly when you say "The Jewish struggle in exile" are you referring to just one or all of them?

    Here is the problem though with applying this only strictly to Jewish people. Other people can also suffer for doing the right thing, not only Jews. Yes it applies to Jews, but are they really the only ones whom it can apply to? If that were the case wouldn't it be more specific? Suppose Quakers are oppressed for refusing to fight and are systematically destroyed. Does the prophecy not apply to them as well? Does their sacrifice not also count? I think Isaiah will think it does. That is where these NT authors seem to be going, and they seem to be extending Abraham's family through their arguments. Their interpretation appears to be that Abraham blesses the world through adoption.

    I don't see this argument very clearly. Is the phrase in fact 'Universally rejected' ? I have seen Jews rejected but never universally. There always seems to be at least one or two who sticks up for them though not many.

    Definitely I agree. Its a ridiculous argument and yet another indicator that the gospels are being used abnormally.

    It underscores the point that Mary is the first disciple to accept that Jesus will be killed, but this portion of the story has a different emphasis unrelated to the argument. Peter has three names in the gospels. He begins as Simon which means "The Reed" an allusion to Isaiah 42:3 "...a bruised reed he will not break..." Peter also denies Jesus in this story while all of the twelve disciples also run away, abandoning Jesus. This symbolizes the universal rejection to which you refer. Here is Joseph rejected by all family, and here are the Jews rejected by the world. Why do they reject and deny? The gospel is addressing the question "Why must saints put up with it?" Simon is a bent reed, but rather than correcting him directly he is left untouched. He is not straightened, since there is a risk it will break him. He then receives direct wisdom from heaven (and not through any person or interpreter) and becomes the Rock not made with hands. His name alludes to the image of the dream seen by king Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Daniel. All of this gets explained in the letter 1 Peter. Apparently the only way to win souls is through endurance, and so the gospel argues the reason for the present crisis is that it is to benefit people and bless the world. The point is that the suffering is for a reason and is not pointless. When Peter objects to Jesus suffering (and that of all martyrs) he is named Satan, because there must be martyrs. I think the gospel is arguing that progress cannot be made without them.

    To your point that Peter doesn't expect Jesus to suffer and die, true. Think of it like this. Peter is named three times, and so there are three Peters. One is the bent reed, one is the Satan, and one is the Rock. Yes you are correct in the context of arguing with missionaries that Peter doesn't expect Jesus to die. On the other hand missionaries are generally shallow in their reading of this gospel and have no clue usually what its saying as far as I can tell. I think that is a shame, because they are taking such a direct route in trying to straighten what they see as bent reeds. They will inevitably cause harm.
     
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  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    How might you explain the contrast between the plural and singular
    "all of US like sheep have gone stray but the Lord laid the iniquity of us all on HIM"
    Seems highly repeated

    I see about 34 words like he or him in the singular from the latter part of 52 through 53
    and 20 some words in the plural like our or we. Seems a deliberate contrast.

    It goes as far to say his generation rejected him but he was stricken for the iniquities of 'my people'
    which seems to me more in the direction of speaking a Jesus the Messiah type figure than Israel the nation
     
    #32 whirlingmerc, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    " They can't unwrite Isaiah, yet somehow they reverse him."

    I am blown away.

    "The Jewish struggle in exile" are you referring to just one or all of them?"

    I think Isaiah is referring to Jews collectively as a unit. I can see where it would apply to ALL martyrs who suffer to the sake of their faith, but in this case I think Isaiah's suffering servant is NOT Jesus, but Israel.

    The whole of the Old Testament cannot possibly be about either the expectation of Jesus or the end of the world.

    The OT is in fact, the history of the Jews and their relationship to God.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Bible is NOTHING if not repetitive, There is but one theme in the OT that repeats and repeats from the flood to the Exodus to the Babylonian exile.
     
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The suffering servant is throughout the OT. David speaks of him as he who has his arms and feet pierced,
    the one given gall to drink. Zechariah speaks of the Jewish nation mourning that their king who has come
    to them is the same one whom they pierced.
    No Jew other than Jesus could be the spotless lamb who gives his life for his people.

    Who in fact despises and rejects this servant? The people He was sent to.
    We are told what would become of those who "knew not the time of their visitation" -
    it was exile and slavery, all over again.

    This copy and past tract simply tries to explain away the Son of God.
     
    #35 PruePhillip, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Every Word established by 2 or 3 witnesses ...

    Isaiah 6:8-10
    8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
    9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    Isaiah 28:9-13
    9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

    Isaiah 29:9-14
    9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
    10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
    11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
    12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
    13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


    Now, who thinks they understand Isaiah?
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Read Isaiah without prejudice.

    Are you talking about Psalms 22:16?

    This has NOTHING to do with explaining away Jesus.

    This is about integrity. Christians have hijacked Isaiah's Servant Song to attribute it to Jesus when the SERVANT all thru Isaiah is Israel.
     
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  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Everyone believes Isaiah 53 is a servant song. and the fruit of this servant are 'the servants' in the rest of the book. Just as there are songs of the servant in Isaiah 40 though 53, which represents Jesus, the believing redeemed community, the fruit of the servant are 'servants' which appears repeatedly in Isaiah 54 to 66.
     
  19. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but it is repetition with a purpose
    and here he or him occurs about 34 times and we or our about 24 or so
    They are not 'throwaway words'

    There is also the matter of the servant being high and lifted up. Shutting the mouths of kings,
    Sacrificially sprinkling nations in Isaiah 52 leading into 53

    and that goes along quite well with Isaiah 6 where it is God who is high and lifted up and Isiah's mouth is shut (in a sense) I think that it is quite reasonable to take 'the servant' to be somehow in some sense the same as the one enthroned in Isaiah 6
     
  20. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    No. The first half of Isaiah 52 speaks of Israel. The second half of 52 and all of 53 speaks of the
    Messiah. In fact it speaks beautifully of the Messiah, like an OT Gospel. Isaiah speaks often of
    this Messiah. We see him rejected of his own people, offering his life like a lamb without resistance,
    and looking back afterwards and seeing what he accomplished.
     
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