Is there an afterlife?

[`mud]

Is cognizance a `spirit` of oneself ?
`It`, itself, goes on, I'm asked ?
Maybe the cognizance is the `soul` of one's being.
But....does it have `cognizance` itself ?
It's gnostic comprehension of all that is `us`, the `soul`
From Katzpur:"...but my existence as a self-aware spirit..."
`Self-awarded` by what, what will make you aware of yourself ?
That part of the 'after life' I don't get !!!
Some ones say: they won't be there, anyways !

 

[DanishCrow]

Nice. Norse Shamanism is very fascinating to me. I would appreciate it if you could give me more info about it, like how to practice it, if you want.

Pop by the Shamanism or Heathen DIRS and ask? There are several of us around.

In short: I use the same methods as shamans everywhere in the world, rattle and drum, to enter the underworld (or other spirit realms), to achieve various aims, usually augury/seeing or healing of patients.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know how to answer this, since I think that the essence of our being is not influences by the physical (at least not to the degree you believe it is).

I deliberately picked things that I hoped you would agree were physical things with physical effects: brain injury, medication, hormones. Do you not agree that these are physical?

I think our self-awareness itself is pretty huge, and if nothing else were left, as you say, we'd be keenly aware of that.

So you'd just kinda know?

I think that our ability to feel love or to appreciate beauty are things that are a part of our spiritual essence and will always continue to exist.

For a while, I was on a medication that had depression as a side effect. I'd say that my ability to appreciate beauty was impaired while this was happening.

I know you don't see it that way, and I'm not going to try to convince you. But absolutely nothing is going to change how I personally feel about that. I could be wrong about everything else I believe, but my existence as a self-aware spirit is something that's never going to change.

Have you had much experience with people who have been significantly altered by the physical?

I've worked with people who had brain injuries or were on psychiatric drugs. I saw the effects of a very physical tumour on my father's brain as he lost faculty after faculty. I've seen the personality changes in loved ones when they're on hormone therapy. Do you think it's wrong for me to conclude that the things that were affected by these physical phenomena are most likely rooted in the physical themselves?

Change a person's hormone levels and you can make them aggressive or passive, happy or sad, impulsive or not, etc. Which one is "the real person?" Personally, I say that all of them are, but this is because I include the influence of hormones as part of what the person is.

 

[Katzpur]

I deliberately picked things that I hoped you would agree were physical things with physical effects: brain injury, medication, hormones. Do you not agree that these are physical?

Yes, I agree that they are.

So you'd just kinda know?

You'd just definitely know.

For a while, I was on a medication that had depression as a side effect. I'd say that my ability to appreciate beauty was impaired while this was happening.

Have you had much experience with people who have been significantly altered by the physical?

I've worked with people who had brain injuries or were on psychiatric drugs. I saw the effects of a very physical tumour on my father's brain as he lost faculty after faculty. I've seen the personality changes in loved ones when they're on hormone therapy. Do you think it's wrong for me to conclude that the things that were affected by these physical phenomena are most likely rooted in the physical themselves?

Change a person's hormone levels and you can make them aggressive or passive, happy or sad, impulsive or not, etc. Which one is "the real person?" Personally, I say that all of them are, but this is because I include the influence of hormones as part of what the person is.

I'd say that physical things can temporarily interfere with our personality and emotions, but I don't think they can change the essence of who we are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I agree that they are.

You'd just definitely know.

I'd say that physical things can temporarily interfere with our personality and emotions, but I don't think they can change the essence of who we are.

By "the essence of who we are," do you mean a normal personality state that's maintained by a steady low-level drip of seratonin, dopamine, etc.?

 

[Katzpur]

By "the essence of who we are," do you mean a normal personality state that's maintained by a steady low-level drip of seratonin, dopamine, etc.?

It's a lot more than "personality" and it isn't maintained by a steady low-level drip of anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's a lot more than "personality" and it isn't maintained by a steady low-level drip of anything.

What is? What aspects of a human being aren’t sustained by the physical? IOW, what aspects of a person can’t be affected by a deficiency of something physical?

 

[Katzpur]

What is? What aspects of a human being aren’t sustained by the physical? IOW, what aspects of a person can’t be affected by a deficiency of something physical?

The spirit sustains the physical body, not the other way around. And this conversation is going nowhere, agreed? I can never, ever, ever, ever, ever give you answers you find satisfactory, and yet you persist. Either you have an extremely high level of confidence that I'll just keep trying, or else you're seeing how quickly you can get me to throw up my hands in despair. We are not even talking the same language. Consequently, we are not ever going to be able to understand one another.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The spirit sustains the physical body, not the other way around. And this conversation is going nowhere, agreed? I can never, ever, ever, ever, ever give you answers you find satisfactory, and yet you persist. Either you have an extremely high level of confidence that I'll just keep trying, or else you're seeing how quickly you can get me to throw up my hands in despair. We are not even talking the same language. Consequently, we are not ever going to be able to understand one another.

I realize that you haven’t been giving straight answers to my questions. I didn’t realize that it was because we “are not even talking the same language.”

If you see this conversation as unpleasant or pointless, then don’t participate.

The reason I keep on participate in discussions like this: I don’t want to give up on the religious. I’m holding out hope that the other person will tell me something that will let me say “yes, their position is rational. Maybe I don’t accept all the premises it’s founded on, but I can see that it does logically flow from them.”

At first blush, the idea that there’s something about a person that isn’t rooted in the physical seems to me like an unjustifiable assumption. Going a step further and saying that there’s enough of this non-physical stuff that we can rightly call it that person seems ludicrous and unbelievable to me.

... yet here you are, saying that this is the case. And not just you; belief in “souls” that persist after death is pretty common. As I see it, I’m left with two options:

- just dismiss the idea as not just apparently ludicrous but actually ludicrous and let my opinion of religion and its adherents fall a few more notches. I don’t want to do that; in fact, at this point, the main reason I’m here on RF at all is to try to find a way to avoid contempt for religion.

- ask someone who seems to have put a lot of thought into her beliefs how she reconciled these beliefs against the reality we see and measure.

I really don’t get why you see this conversation as some sort of ordeal. I would have thought you would have been able to list off a few aspects of human beings that you thought resided in the soul and not in the body.

 

[`mud]

What the hell was the discussion about ?
~
If there is one, they will be arguing there !
180 they are !

 

[`mud]

Oh.....I got it....
"....resided in the soul and not in the body...."
And again, what is the `soul` ? Is it the spirit within us ?
Or are they separate, or one in itself ?
And the `physical` is just glands and stuff.
What came with birth, and goes on at death ?
I vote on the Spirit every time !
My `soul` dies with my brain !
NuffStuff

 

[dfnj]

Just wanted to say thank you for the feedback yesterday on my video about religion.

My question for you guys is, do you believe there is life after death? If yes, tell me why. And if no, tell me why as well but explain to me on how you deal with knowing there is just this life and no other.

I believe after we die we meld into the mind of God to experience eternally heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins.

There is no life after death because we are not alive in the first place. Each of us did not invent what it means to be a human being. Each of us did not invent our sexuality. But each of us has it. The same thing is true with our character. None of us invented the aspects of our character that we think are unique to ourselves. It is just ego delusion to think we are different from everyone else. We are hardly different at all. What makes us who we are is shared by everyone. So when we die, the essence of who we are does NOT really die because it lives on in every other person on the planet.

My life is a Tibetan sand painting. Beautiful, fun to look at, but ultimately purposeless without being viewed in the context of everyone else who is still alive. Each of us is just a single cell in larger living organism called humanity.

This sentiment is expressed by the Pantera song A New Level:

Now a new look in my eyes my spirit rise
Forget the past
Present tense works and lasts
Got sh!t on
Pissed on
Spit on
Stepped on
Fuc*ed with
Pointed at by lesser men
New life in place of old life
Unscarred by trials
A new level of confidence and power
Demanding plea for unity between us all
United stand
Death before divided fall
In mock military order
Vulgar
Power
Impatient
Because time is shorter
New life in place of old life
Unscarred by trials
A new level of confidence and power
No fuc*ing surrender
Can't lose
Life kills

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What the hell was the discussion about ?

The question of "do we survive death in some form separate from our physical bodies?" naturally leads to the question "what do you mean by this 'we' that might possibly be separate from our physical bodies?"

 

[Katzpur]

I realize that you haven’t been giving straight answers to my questions. I didn’t realize that it was because we “are not even talking the same language.”

I've given you the only kind of answers I know how to give. I never intentionally refuse to give people straight answers. I do my level best, but when I say that we're not even talking the same language, I simply mean that I've run out of ways to try to express how I feel.

If you see this conversation as unpleasant or pointless, then don’t participate.

Great idea. I think I'll take you up on it.

The reason I keep on participate in discussions like this: I don’t want to give up on the religious. I’m holding out hope that the other person will tell me something that will let me say “yes, their position is rational. Maybe I don’t accept all the premises it’s founded on, but I can see that it does logically flow from them.”

Are you going to tell me that you seriously don't see why it would be offensive to religious people to hear you say that you "don't want to give up on [us]"? That is so condescending! You're still holding out hope that I'm possibly rational, but instead "not endowed with reason or understanding and lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence." (That's the dictionary definition of irrational.)

I have known you for just about as long as I've known anybody on this forum, and I've really tried to be forthright and honest with you in all of our discussions. You're telling me now that I don't give you straight answers, but that you don't want to give up on me anyway. Why can't you just accept the fact that I've tried and failed to express myself and that I'm getting frustrated, not to mention insulted.

... yet here you are, saying that this is the case. And not just you; belief in “souls” that persist after death is pretty common.

It's very common. There are a lot of us irrational folks wandering around, and yet managing to live full lives and not ending up institutionalized.

As I see it, I’m left with two options:

- just dismiss the idea as not just apparently ludicrous but actually ludicrous and let my opinion of religion and its adherents fall a few more notches. I don’t want to do that; in fact, at this point, the main reason I’m here on RF at all is to try to find a way to avoid contempt for religion.

- ask someone who seems to have put a lot of thought into her beliefs how she reconciled these beliefs against the reality we see and measure.

I really don’t get why you see this conversation as some sort of ordeal. I would have thought you would have been able to list off a few aspects of human beings that you thought resided in the soul and not in the body.

It's an ordeal to be told (basically every time we talk) that the conclusions I've come to are "not just apparently ludicrous but actually ludicrous" just because they can't be proven via the scientific method. So if you still can't figure out why I am through trying, I'm genuinely sorry, but I've done my best to explain.

One final thought: If I live to be 100, I'm never going to understand why you have "contempt for religion" in the first place. I can appreciate why you would have contempt for some of the things religious people do when their religions start controlling them. But other than that, there is nothing for you to have contempt for! I don't have contempt for atheism. I simply recognize that atheists don't see an divine component in our lives. I don't get all frustrated because the best they can do is say, "there's no proof of a God so I'm not going to believe in one." I don't feel the need to pressure them for an explanation beyond that, because I know that's the best they're going to be able to do.

 

[JustWondering]

Just wanted to say thank you for the feedback yesterday on my video about religion.

My question for you guys is, do you believe there is life after death? If yes, tell me why. And if no, tell me why as well but explain to me on how you deal with knowing there is just this life and no other.

I have no reason to believe in an afterlife, there is no evidence to support such a thing. As for dealing with it, it doesn't really bother me I guess. I figure I'm lucky to be a self aware sentient being to begin with. I have a limited time to exist, it is what it is. Deluding myself with ideas about magical things like an afterlife serves no purpose. From my perspective most people are endlessly greedy, always wanting more and never grateful and satisfied with what they already have. This world could be a paradise for us, but we are incapable of creating that paradise due to our selfish nature, always bickering or waiting for a imagined deity of some kind to solve our problems for us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have understood sin is basically that person rejects God or lives without God. When one really knows God, I don’t think he wants to reject Him and so sin.

In Scripture I find that sin is either on purpose or not, intentional or not, willfull or not, premeditated or not.
Leaning towards wrong doing is inherited from father Adam down to us.
In other words, No matter how hard we try, we can Not completely stop sinning or disobeying God.
However, we can do our best to avoid deliberately disobeying in knowing what is wrong in God's eyes.
After all, God's judgement is already recorded in Scripture as to what He thinks is right or wrong.
So, when Jesus gave us the 'New commandment' as found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has then we will do our best to Not sin on purpose.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have no reason to believe in an afterlife, there is no evidence to support such a thing...... This world could be a paradise for us, but we are incapable of creating that paradise due to our selfish nature, always bickering or waiting for a imagined deity of some kind to solve our problems for us.

I find Scripture does Not support or teach afterlife but rather teaches about resurrection.
The afterlife theory is more about being more alive after death than before death.
Whereas resurrection is about being restored to life at some future point through Jesus as per Revelation 1:18.
Those of Revelation 20:6 have a first or earlier resurrection.
The majority of mankind to have a future resurrection back to live a physical happy-and-healthy life on Earth.
That is why the 'future tense' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that ' there will be ' a resurrection.....

The people (figurative sheep) of Matthew 25:31-33 do Not have a selfish nature.
They live by Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has. They are Not just waiting for some deity to solve problems, but they do know the majority of mankind now falls into the description found at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13. So, mankind's problems are too BIG for mankind in general to solve and that is why Jesus taught about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 is the coming solution. And that is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come.
Come and usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Oh.....I got it....
"....resided in the soul and not in the body...."
And again, what is the `soul` ? Is it the spirit within us ?
Or are they separate, or one in itself ?
And the `physical` is just glands and stuff.
What came with birth, and goes on at death ?
I vote on the Spirit every time !
My `soul` dies with my brain !
NuffStuff

When Adam died ALL of Adam died. ALL of Adam ' returned ' to the ground as per Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.
I find, according to Genesis 2:7, that Adam became a living soul or person.
It does Not say Adam possessed a soul, nor does it say Adam had a soul.
At death Adam ceased to be a living soul and he became a dead soul or life-less soul.
Or, as Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul that sins dies. Adam was a deliberate sinner that is why he died.
As gospel writer Luke wrote at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that a soul can be destroyed.
And since the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7 then the wicked will be dead souls.

Our spirit goes back to God in the sense that any future resurrection life prospect lies in God's hands.
Just as a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but just 'returns' back to the owner, then our spirit goes back, or returns back to God in the hope of a future resurrection. Some resurrected to heaven, and the rest can be resurrected back to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth during Jesus' 1,000-year rule over Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don’t see any reason why they would be exclusive. In my opinion they both are possible.

Both are possible resurrections in the sense that both can have a resurrection.
It is just that those of Revelation 20:6 have a first or earlier resurrection.
They govern over the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth.
(Starting with those of Matthew 25:37,40)
They serve mankind in the capacity of being both kings and priests as per Revelation 5:9-10.
As ' kings ' they will take care of governmental responsibilities for the people of Earth.
As ' priests ' they will take care of spiritual duties towards people living on Earth.
Then, we will see the fulfillment of Revelation 22:2 when mankind living on Earth will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' for the healing of earth's nations. That will be in fulfilment about God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed (Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18).
Blessed with the benefit of healing as described in chapter 35 of Isaiah.

 

[Katzpur]

When Adam died ALL of Adam died. ALL of Adam ' returned ' to the ground as per Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.

Actually, Ecclesiates 12:7 says that "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The spirit returns to God and the body returns to the ground.