Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

[VoidoftheSun]

Therefore, anyone teaching Jesus is the Issa of the Quran, is speaking a falsehood, and is from the Devil.
Sory guys, this is what God says.

Thanks for validating what I believe (but the Bible is also from the Devil), though not many Satanists would agree with either of us.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Where does the Bible say that God blew into Mary's vagina?
It says that the Holy Ghost came over Mary, and she was found to be with child.

Now, perhaps your mental picture is one in error for realising what the Quran say about Allah blowing into Mary's private parts.
Bcause if the Bible say the Holy Ghost came over someone, it is totally different than what your thinking is.

Let me demonstrate,
The holy Ghost came upon David, and he gave prophecies.
The Spirit of God came over Samson and he became strong.
The Spirit of God came over Samuel, and many people in the Bible, and they were changed in their physical and mental capacity.

And Allah?
This sex god of Arabic idolatory who ensures that men gets Whores in paradise when they kill non Muslims in suicide, he just could not resist in slander against Mary because she was a women, and he loves sex.

The God of the Bible never promised sex in the afterlife.
Jesus even taught that there will not be man or woman in the afterlife, and there will not be marrages, therefore, no sex.
Thanks for your question.

Now, taking the above in consideration, do you see that this Issa is nothing to do with Yhaveyashua, or Jesus as we know hm.

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
(Luke 1:35)

It's identical to what the Qur'an says. God puts the spirit into Mary and she conceives a child as a virgin.

This sex god of Arabic idolatory who ensures that men gets Whores in paradise

That is heresy in Islam. But I like the image that you convey, in that you think Islam was even more liberal than 2020 Liberals and the general left regarding sexuality. I do admire that false view, it's good incentive personally but I won't be able to actually find any evidence of this in the Qur'an nor in authentic Hadith. So if I hook up with some "whores" then I will be considered a sinner for doing so as per the Sunnah.


Vicious women are for vicious men, and vicious men for vicious women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women. These are absolved of what they say [about them]. For them is forgiveness and a noble provision.
(Qur'an, Surah 24:26)

Tell the faithful men to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts. That is more decent for them. Allah is indeed well aware of what they do.
(Qur'an, Surah 24:30)

Islam is very consistent with being against fornication and other forms of 'sexual immorality'.

 

[rational experiences]

Maybe you can help me?
Can you show me exactly where Jesus said that he would return and kill people?

I don't think that you can, but who knows... ?

Holman Bible Dictionary. Dissipation. Deceptive desires leading to a life-style without discipline resulting in the dizzy hangovers of drunkenness. The Greek word apate means, “deception” caused by riches ( Matthew 13:22 ) and sin (Hebrews 3:13 ). This is founded in the deceptive lusts of the unredeemed human heart (Ephesians 4:22 ).

Removal of SIN.....is a quote what form of SIN is removed.

Sin of God the stone is its cold gases that leaves holes.

If you remove the Sin of God in a want to remove self in a KNOWN nuclear ground fission, as stated, then it is a Satanic lie in science.

Is Jesus a Satanic lie in science, yes, no human should be sacrificed.

Which them comes to Mr Know it All who does experiments with a pre owned answer...does the experiment does not get his answer.....then blames the information and not his own male lying brother self.

Father told me today to tell you from AI quotes that when a male says to his self but I was innocent of knowing evil. Because change had not yet occurred, so how was he informed. Then does it...then his intent was to unknowingly be changed, yet he was changed.

How is that status in science when you write a formula that says equals without change?

 

[oldbadger]

Interesting. Paul's epistles predate the gospels, they are the earliest writings we have,....

So what?

......and he goes to great lengths describing Jesus Christ and most certainly describes what Christ did, and he provides sources.

Paul wrote nothing about anything that Jesus said or did in his whole three years' mission.
Incidents? Travels? Conflicts?

Nothing!

 

[oldbadger]

Holman Bible Dictionary. Dissipation. Deceptive desires leading to a life-style without discipline resulting in the dizzy hangovers of drunkenness. The Greek word apate means, “deception” caused by riches ( Matthew 13:22 ) and sin (Hebrews 3:13 ). This is founded in the deceptive lusts of the unredeemed human heart (Ephesians 4:22 ).

Removal of SIN.....is a quote what form of SIN is removed.

Sin of God the stone is its cold gases that leaves holes.

If you remove the Sin of God in a want to remove self in a KNOWN nuclear ground fission, as stated, then it is a Satanic lie in science.

Is Jesus a Satanic lie in science, yes, no human should be sacrificed.

Which them comes to Mr Know it All who does experiments with a pre owned answer...does the experiment does not get his answer.....then blames the information and not his own male lying brother self.

Father told me today to tell you from AI quotes that when a male says to his self but I was innocent of knowing evil. Because change had not yet occurred, so how was he informed. Then does it...then his intent was to unknowingly be changed, yet he was changed.

How is that status in science when you write a formula that says equals without change?

Yes, yes, rational experiences.
OK.

 

[lukethethird]

So what?


Paul wrote nothing about anything that Jesus said or did in his whole three years' mission.
Incidents? Travels? Conflicts?

Nothing!

Maybe you had already come to conclusions as to how Christianity originated when you were reading Paul.

 

[firedragon]

It's simply to help me to come to an informed opinion. The means by which the Prophet Mohammed came about this information would be very beneficial information as to the historical accuracy of Jesus in the Quaran. If I misunderstood the question of this topic, then I apologize.

Its not that your question invalid, I just prefer to stick to the OP brother. So I apologize if you think I am dismissing you.

 

[lukethethird]

1. The Jews claim they killed Jesus (Doesn't say Romans), yet they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him says the Qur'an - 4:157

2. Jesus was called the "Messiah". - 3:45

3. Jesus had followers, him, and his followers preached a theology - 61:14

4. He spoke to the Jews - 5:46, 72

Rather than considering the theological points and all the apologetics on the internet and TV, it would be interesting to just think of these simple historical claims and wonder if it is actually historical objectively.

What you have to say?

What was the authors sources for this information?

 

[firedragon]

What was the authors sources for this information?

Topic of another thread mate.

 

[rational experiences]

The Bible places the wandering star DNA newly born human genetics biology reasoning to around 2BC or 2AD. With science males making this quote for Temple and pyramid life sacrificed accounting after the fact 33AD Jesus event.

Pre teaching of the Christ Revelations existed as humans in life sacrificed are attacked, see the phenomena, are witness to it, preach it. Just like the ufologist groups do today.....have to come together as a newly formed group against the consensus.

So when the event 33AD occurred, Rome was proven wrong about Temple science...why the Christ Revelations then became a Tribunal Roman agreement to uphold a non Temple science pyramid technology.

Hence in that time period the owners of Egypt land and pyramids were applying the technology and were not under the Muslim history.

Therefore anyone would question today why a technology that utilised a circuit model between Temples whose floor plan is like the inside of a radio transmitter, and pyramids was stopped under that regime order 33AD event...to the Muslim history, who stated we did not get sacrificed like the Jewish community had, land owners of where the circuit turned....Jeru meaning of salem?

Then after they claim a Messenger was gained...which in science O God one Earth meaning states.....new asteroid wandering star stone gases were observed being released due to the irradiation effect...which means Yearly O the God stone body passed back through irradiated space.

Humans living in their natural communities then owned changed mind/brain chemical conditions. For Rome prove that the Temple science was stopped 33AD.

You would then reason, why then did the Muslim changes occur by heavenly spirit conditions, to then see the Muslim takeover of the re building of the sciences in Jeru salem? At a much later date, that then involved the Shroud of Turin evidence and Holy Wars fought to give Israel back its human rights to live in a non radiation fall out nation?

Which is historically what the stories are written about......male reasoning and return of scientific belief that self was safe after being irradiated, when self was never safe. And the newly arrived spirit gases gave that false impression of being life safe as a reality of how our consciousness is proven to be affected by cosmological causes?

 

[lukethethird]

Topic of another thread mate.

If we don't know where the information is coming from how do we know the author just didn't make it up? We need to know the sources to know if the Qur'an is possibly historical. Kind of a need to know.

 

[rational experiences]

If we don't know where the information is coming from how do we know the auther just didn't make it up? We need to know the sources to know if the Qur'an is possibly historical. Kind of a need to know.

History, means was owned or occurred in the past as History, and everything you study today is historical actually, for it was written in the past.

In other words you cannot repeat history, unless you remove Earth spatial cold evolution owned by the conditions natural space, to ask a question in science was it relative to the past....meaning you would have to take it back to 33AD as the event of causes to say is it scientific relative.

For if you study history, science was practiced as science in that history and given titles and names about powers and theories, the same as it is today.

If you are talking human, humans wrote the documentation as the males who wrote and complied it....and they really lived.....for no human as a male is a human or a male in relativity. For no form owns a name in actual human reality, for creation is only named for human male group scientific human purposes.

So if you did not give self names, then no information exists in reality for you would not own the choice do to research to impose it.

 

[firedragon]

If we don't know where the information is coming from how do we know the auther just didn't make it up? We need to know the sources to know if the Qur'an is possibly historical. Kind of a need to know.

Even if he made it up, still the question is "does it align the historical Jesus". For this question, where he got it from is not needed. Its irrelevant for this thread.

 

[lukethethird]

History, means was owned or occurred in the past as History, and everything you study today is historical actually, for it was written in the past.

In other words you cannot repeat history, unless you remove Earth spatial cold evolution owned by the conditions natural space, to ask a question in science was it relative to the past....meaning you would have to take it back to 33AD as the event of causes to say is it scientific relative.

For if you study history, science was practiced as science in that history and given titles and names about powers and theories, the same as it is today.

If you are talking human, humans wrote the documentation as the males who wrote and complied it....and they really lived.....for no human as a male is a human or a male in relativity. For no form owns a name in actual human reality, for creation is only named for human male group scientific human purposes.

So if you did not give self names, then no information exists in reality for you would not own the choice do to research to impose it.

Yes, I agree totally.

 

[lukethethird]

Even if he made it up, still the question is "does it align the historical Jesus". For this question, where he got it from is not needed. Its irrelevant for this thread.

I see.

 

[eik]

Both.......... born from his religious spin.
Nothing to do with Jesus's real mission at all.

I can see why Islam would hate Paul, because Paul condemns Islam directly to hell for preaching another gospel.

For the only mission that Islam conceives for Jesus is to prepare the way for Mahomet. Islam fundamentally has no interest in Christ beyond a "John the Baptist" type of role, but rather more interest in Mary his mother (cf. Our Lady at Fátima), who along with Fatimah bint Muhammad acts as a kind of female role model equivalent to Mahomet.

We reliably know far more about the words of Jesus, because he had 12 disciples, than we do of the words of Mahomet, whose history was afterwards subject to so much spin, invention and fabrication in the Hadith that it became impossible to distinguish truth from falsehood, in respect of what he actually said. As for the Koran, we know for certain it contains foreign elements i.e. materials that did not come directly from Mahomet, and were even translated into Arabic for the purpose of insertion into the Koran.

Both.......... born
Huh?

The Old Testament makes it perfectly clear that the son of God / son of man would come, a son that Islam denies. Even the unbelieving Jews expected the "messiah" at the time of Christ. Islam has a real problem with the OT, which it claims to espouse. I can't make sense of how Islam can sincerely purport to adopt the OT, except for propaganda purposes.

Wrong! Islam proposes, people in Kashmir propose, the NT suggests, and I agree!

Not in the Koran, and not in the NT. All the Koran says is that Jesus was assumed into heaven, which is just an outright repudiation of the entire gospel account of the crucifixion and resurrection. just as the Koran denies almost every word Jesus is reported as saying in the gospel of John.

That's a Yes/No! answer....... you say , 'None whatever....apart from....'
Just read what you write.

Why should I be obliged to give a Y/N answer? Anyone can ask trick questions such that either Y or N would be a false answer.

The plain fact is that Islam repudiates the gospel of John in toto. It preaches a different gospel, and tries to make Jesus the author of it. However Jesus is on record as repudiating Islam, when he said Jn 4:22 "Salvation is from the Jews." In his life Christ recognized no-one other than the Jews (the "lost sheep of Israel") as the rightful heirs and children of Abraham.

 

[oldbadger]

Maybe you had already come to conclusions as to how Christianity originated when you were reading Paul.

You see?
So you could not show where Paul knew about or bothered to recount one single incident, trip or saying from Jesus in three whole years of mission as recounted by John.

Do you see what I mean at last?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's a revelation (direct speech of God, literally every Surah is God telling Muhammad things, as God told Moses things), so historical and ahistorical are both irrelevant and incorrect frames of viewing it. The Qur'an is always a book about the present day, not the past nor the future, but the present.
To treat the Qur'an as history would be like treating the Torah as history. (although the format of the Torah isn't as direct as the Qur'an, and varies in it's narrators etc)

Obviously revelations have a different kind of categorization.
For Muslims though, the Qur'an is literally the theophany. Not the physical book but the speech itself.
The two comparisons are that for Jews the theophany is the event on Mount Sinai (purportedly heard by thousands) and for Christians it is the person of Jesus.

You have to contextually understand it as such or else you are walking around flinging strawmen.

The Tanakh, the New Testament, and the Quran all three claim to be revelations. Yet all three contradict each other. They can't all be correct. You can't buy into the Quran simply because it claims to be a revelation, or you'll be locked into the Tanakh and Christian scriptures too, and then you'll be in a state of self contradiction.

 

[oldbadger]

I can see why Islam would hate Paul, because Paul condemns Islam directly to hell for preaching another gospel.

That's Paul's problem....... he thought he had the right to decide what Christianity would become. No wonder Cephas needed to get his account in to writing.
In my opinion Paul (and John) turned a beautiful movement in to a nightmare that would fragment in to hundreds of different churches, hundreds of wars, hell... in fact.

For the only mission that Islam conceives for Jesus is to prepare the way for Mahomet. Islam fundamentally has no interest in Christ beyond a "John the Baptist" type of role, but rather more interest in Mary his mother (cf. Our Lady at Fátima), who along with Fatimah bint Muhammad acts as a kind of female role model equivalent to Mahomet.

Of course..... as Abrahamic religions come so they each insist upon the tenet of progressive revelation through God's messengers........ the thread here is posted by a Bahai so you'll need to ask him about that. I'll give @adrian009 a heads up on that. EDIT: Oops..... he didn't, it was @firedragon 's. ..... but he might make mention about progressive revelation .....
Mary, who was quite estranged from and by Jesus (at Magdala) was urgently needed to be returned or reversed in to Christianity for a Roman following, to replace their important Godesses like Venus. And you moan about Islam needing her. Roman Christianity needed her!

We reliably know far more about the words of Jesus, because he had 12 disciples, than we do of the words of Mahomet, whose history was afterwards subject to so much spin, invention and fabrication in the Hadith that it became impossible to distinguish truth from falsehood, in respect of what he actually said. As for the Koran, we know for certain it contains foreign elements i.e. materials that did not come directly from Mahomet, and were even translated into Arabic for the purpose of insertion into the Koran.

Nope! The gospels are full of manipulations, additions, spin and waffle and the more a researcher reads through them, so the more editing is discovered. All the evidence that we have for Jesus and his mission is based upon the 'Balance of probability' rather than any Direct or Primary evidence. So it's no use chucking bricks at Islam about that.

The Old Testament makes it perfectly clear that the son of God / son of man would come, a son that Islam denies. Even the unbelieving Jews expected the "messiah" at the time of Christ. Islam has a real problem with the OT, which it claims to espouse. I can't make sense of how Islam can sincerely purport to adopt the OT, except for propaganda purposes.

That's you talking from a very biased position. Islam takes the OT history very seriously, builds it laws from the early books. It's no good to chuck muck at Islam...... Christianity has needed cleaning up ever since Paul and John left their writings.
You do realise that when John turned the story from 'anger about the priestshood' to 'anger about the Jews' that he caused two millenia of very wicked Antisemitism?

Not in the Koran, and not in the NT. All the Koran says is that Jesus was assumed into heaven, which is just an outright repudiation of the entire gospel account of the crucifixion and resurrection. just as the Koran denies almost every word Jesus is reported as saying in the gospel of John.

I have been very very lucky on this thread, because a challenging post caused me to look up an old work acquaintance for info, and he gave me the real foundation link from Islam to the bible to an historic Jesus. These things happen by chance, but I'm very pleased.

Why should I be obliged to give a Y/N answer? Anyone can ask trick questions such that either Y or N would be a false answer.

Y/N questions aren't tricks, only to those who dare not give a straight answer.

The plain fact is that Islam repudiates the gospel of John in toto. It preaches a different gospel, and tries to make Jesus the author of it. However Jesus is on record as repudiating Islam, when he said Jn 4:22 "Salvation is from the Jews." In his life Christ recognized no-one other than the Jews (the "lost sheep of Israel") as the rightful heirs and children of Abraham.

So do I! Brilliant! I never realised Islam was that keen!
John, pretending to have been the disciple, extending a 12 month mission to 3 years, not even knowing what Jesus did, when or where....
John did not know what Jesus and the disciples did in during the last week at the feast...... couldn't get a single day's events right. Well done Islam!

 

[VoidoftheSun]

The Tanakh, the New Testament, and the Quran all three claim to be revelations.

Not entirely, the Tanakh are records of the early Israelites leading up to Judaism (in the narrative book of Genesis).
The Torah tells the life of Moses but is preceded by all of the Prophets and holy men from Adam to Joseph.
The rest of the Tanakh usually follows the same biographical format as Exodus, then there are the mixed genres of the Nevi'im. Which are prophetic proclamations, sometimes claiming to be god talking but as part of a narrative. And the Ketuvim is poetry and wisdom literature.
The New Testament consists of biographical narratives about the life of Jesus, and letters from some early pre-Christians (as the religion came later), and one book of doctrinal visions sent to various churches.
The Qur'an on the other hand is a book that cover to cover in it's contents, format and style claims non other to be God speaking - collectively the revelations given to Prophet Muhammad over the period of 23 years.
There is some comparative parallel with Moses but Muhammad on the other hand with the Qur'an is direct, whereas Moses with the Torah is squished and condensed between revelation and biography (basically where the same book goes between revelation and biography but does not separate the two).
Consequently, unlike Moses with the Jewish Torah, if you want to read of Muhammads like you don't read the Qur'an because it doesn't give you much info as it's addressed to him and not him speaking.
Some Jews think the Torah is somehow from God (though a simple reading makes that problematic), others say Moses wrote it (yet like God, he is a protagonist in it, which makes it an absurd position). Others say Joshua or even Ezra wrote it. Who knows. But stylistically and form-wise, it does not present itself to be the direct word of God.
(this of course doesn't directly disqualify it or make it irrelevant, but different)

You can't buy into the Quran simply because it claims to be a revelation, or you'll be locked into the Tanakh and Christian scriptures too, and then you'll be in a state of self contradiction.

In my reply to you I am explicitly not talking about truth claims but instead what the books in question present themselves to be.