Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

[rational experiences]

Nowhere in all of your post did you show me where Jesus said, 'I will come back and kill people'.

Nowhere......

The second coming said what it did about entering the O God and heavenly body into the irradiation already existing. What science already knows and does not infer.

 

[firedragon]

Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

I'm trying to understand.

Please keep it simple for me, is there nothing in the New Testament that could support the thread title?

I always heard and read that Islam believes that Jesus did not die during the week that he demonstrated in the Temple. If that is wrong, then ...OK.

Some people think that Jesus survived and reached Kashmir where he later died and is buried.

The Cornish people (England) have a tale about how Jesus came there afterwards with Joseph of A, who was a merchant. Of course ships were visiting Cornwall since before the time of Jesus to trade for tin, so that's not as funny as some think.

So if you know what Islam believes happened to Jesus, please tell about it.....

Sorry mate. Thats irrelevant. You can of course start a thread on the subject.

 

[firedragon]

Now, your explanation is very questionable indeed!
Who shall I trust, you... or say men who's the best educated in Arabic in the world, and Non - Muslim?
Men who translated the quran with the correct meaning?
Not Muslims who trie to whitewash the bad language in the Quran
Examples:

Edward Henry Palmer And Mary, daughter of Imran, who guarded her private parts, and we breathed therein of our spirit and she verified the words of her Lord and His books, and was of the devout.
George Sale And Mary the daughter of Imran; who preserved her chastity, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and his scriptures, and was a devout and obedient person.
John Medows Rodwell And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. zoom
N J Dawood And in Mary, ‘Imran‘s daughter, who preserved her chastity and into whose womb We breathed Our spirit; who put her trust in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was truly devout.

Or we can go to Usama Dakdok whos' first language is Arabic, but he is a Christian teaching the world how the Muslim scholars are changeing the true meaning of the Quran.

Now let you undestand that uou can not hide the true meaning anyore.
Farj is "Cleft and Farjaha is "Her cleft!
Any Muslim claiming otherwise is ashamed of the true meaning of the Quran.

Now, you call any Arabic speaking woman and ask her what Farjaha is, and she will not agree to your understanding.
Sorry pal, this Issa in the Quran was still not the one in the Bible who died on the cross.
To argue about some other problem in the quran does not change the facts.

Start a new thread to discuss it. Its not relevant to this one.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Now, your explanation is very questionable indeed!
Who shall I trust, you... or say men who's the best educated in Arabic in the world, and Non - Muslim?
Men who translated the quran with the correct meaning?
Not Muslims who trie to whitewash the bad language in the Quran
Examples:

Edward Henry Palmer And Mary, daughter of Imran, who guarded her private parts, and we breathed therein of our spirit and she verified the words of her Lord and His books, and was of the devout.
George Sale And Mary the daughter of Imran; who preserved her chastity, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and his scriptures, and was a devout and obedient person.
John Medows Rodwell And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. zoom
N J Dawood And in Mary, ‘Imran‘s daughter, who preserved her chastity and into whose womb We breathed Our spirit; who put her trust in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was truly devout.

Or we can go to Usama Dakdok whos' first language is Arabic, but he is a Christian teaching the world how the Muslim scholars are changeing the true meaning of the Quran.

Now let you undestand that uou can not hide the true meaning anyore.
Farj is "Cleft and Farjaha is "Her cleft!
Any Muslim claiming otherwise is ashamed of the true meaning of the Quran.

Now, you call any Arabic speaking woman and ask her what Farjaha is, and she will not agree to your understanding.
Sorry pal, this Issa in the Quran was still not the one in the Bible who died on the cross.
To argue about some other problem in the quran does not change the facts.

I am curious why you're so pissed off about this one when your books say the same thing.

Eg;

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
(Matthew 1:18)

It's very basic to Christianity. As a Protestant/Satanist I thought you would know that already.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

It does leave hanging questions about how people knew for sure that Mary was actually pregnant from the holy spirit.

Of course I would be even blaspheming against myself to challenge that but I do wonder.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

The Quran says Jesus was never crucified, but that people saw Him dying on the cross!
Do you agree?
If not, you say the quran is wrong, if you do agree that Allah made someone else dying on the cross, you make Allah a deceiving liar for cheating the people hho saw Him on the cross.

And what about
Qur'an 66:12
ومريم ابنت عمران التي احصنت فرجها فنفخنا فيه من روحنا وصدقت بكلمات ربها وكتبه وكانت من القانتين
Transliteration: Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohina wasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanat mina alqaniteena

Literal: And Mary Amran's daughter who remained chaste (protected) her genital parts between her legs, so We blew in it from Our Soul/Spirit , and she confirmed/was truthful with her Lord's words/expressions, and His Books , and she was from the worshipping humbly.
Sis man!

Another contradiction.
The Bible is clear that the Word of God became a Man and dwelled amongst us.
Therefore this Word in the Quran is God!
The Word of God is not just some human without divinity, IT IS GOD'S THOUGHTS!
making God's Word a man is blasphemy!


Yes, I also believe that Jesus was born as a baby, ate food, went to toilet, but, If God say he came to this earth as a Man, I would expect him to come as a man, and not some holy spiritual being just appearing as a man without being born as a human.
You dictate your own version of what God says.


And this translation is also very whitewashed. Christians never took their doctors or monks as Gods.
Another contradiction.

Oh, but it is a fact that the Issa in the Quran is the son of Maryam, the daughter of Amram, who was the father of Moses??? in other words, this Issa is not Jesus at all, mary's father was not Amram.
This Issa was never crucified, and never rose from the dead, therefore Muhammad and Allah made one heck of a mistaken identity!

Stop changing the subject, it seems like all you do.

You accused the Qur'an of claiming Jesus to be a false messiah, yet I gave you verses which blatantly state that the Qur'an sees Jesus as the true messiah.
Don't give me more of your irrelevant replies please. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[oldbadger]

Sorry mate. Thats irrelevant. You can of course start a thread on the subject.

I won't start a new thread. I'll stick with:-
Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

I don't think you could help me...... well, you didn't offer anything, so I called an old work colleague A Muslim, and asked him.

He came straight back and sent this brief text to me, just to give me an idea about how some Muslims do believe that Jesus may well have been substituted, and how m,y suggestion about Pilate pardoning and freeing a much loved Jesus is not so impossible. He was very positive. Here it is:-

Islamic Traditions: A Replacement for the Messiah
The Qur’an states very clearly “…for of a surety they killed him (Jesus) not,” (see Qur’an 4:157-159) It further purports that not only was Christ not crucified but that Allah raised Him to Himself and those present were full of doubt. This has led many Muslim scholars to interpret that someone else died on the cross instead of Jesus, the Messiah.

Sometimes it's handy to live in a multicultural country.

 

[oldbadger]

The second coming said what it did about entering the O God and heavenly body into the irradiation already existing. What science already knows and does not infer.

Maybe you can help me?
Can you show me exactly where Jesus said that he would return and kill people?

I don't think that you can, but who knows... ?

 

[eik]

Paul knew nothing about Jesus's life.
Nothing.

I have already explained to you that he had for his companion Luke who wrote the third gospel.

So you don't believe the nativity story in the bible?

Straw man.

That Jesus son-of-the-father was so loved by the people that Pilate pardoned him does help their claim, you know.

And that he loved to see all the disciples later on has to provide some evidence.

Well Jesus got that right.......... people have believed in many saviours since those days. I can think of several. How does that prove that he was NOT either pardoned or survived the cross?

Because there is no record of him after that time, except the preaching of his death and resurrection.

 

[SA Huguenot]

No. the Quran doesn't say any of the things you said above. It does not say "never crucified" but it says "they did not crucify him", also it does not say "people saw him dying on the cross" which is absolutely out of the question so you have made a straw man.

Again,I have yet to find a Muslim who can explain the Quran 4:157
It says:
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Some people say they Killed Jesus:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ."
Then Allah say, No they are wrong, they did not crucify or kill Jesus!
And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him;
And Allah continue to say that he made some other to resemble Jesus dying on the cross!
but [another] was made to resemble him to them.
Allah also say that the people who say they killed Jesus ae in doubt if Jesus was crucified or not!
And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption.
And Allah assures us that Jesus was not killed by people who clain they did kill him.
And they did not kill him, for certain.

Now tell me where I am wrong.
If Allah say he made a resembling object that was Crucified and killed...
Who was the people who Allah made this resemblance of Jesus on the cross for?

In other words.
Did people see a "Jesus" dying on the cross?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Sorry mate. Thats irrelevant. You can of course start a thread on the subject.

This is not true.
It is the most crucial piece of evidence proving that the Jesus of the Quran is not the historical Jesus at all.
How are one to answer someone making a claim, if not giving him the exact error of his claim, a new thread is not appropriate at all.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I am curious why you're so pissed off about this one when your books say the same thing.

Eg;

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
(Matthew 1:18)

It's very basic to Christianity. As a Protestant/Satanist I thought you would know that already.

Where does the Bible say that God blew into Mary's vagina?
It says that the Holy Ghost came over Mary, and she was found to be with child.

Now, perhaps your mental picture is one in error for realising what the Quran say about Allah blowing into Mary's private parts.
Bcause if the Bible say the Holy Ghost came over someone, it is totally different than what your thinking is.

Let me demonstrate,
The holy Ghost came upon David, and he gave prophecies.
The Spirit of God came over Samson and he became strong.
The Spirit of God came over Samuel, and many people in the Bible, and they were changed in their physical and mental capacity.

And Allah?
This sex god of Arabic idolatory who ensures that men gets Whores in paradise when they kill non Muslims in suicide, he just could not resist in slander against Mary because she was a women, and he loves sex.

The God of the Bible never promised sex in the afterlife.
Jesus even taught that there will not be man or woman in the afterlife, and there will not be marrages, therefore, no sex.
Thanks for your question.

Now, taking the above in consideration, do you see that this Issa is nothing to do with Yhaveyashua, or Jesus as we know hm.

 

[SA Huguenot]

We

Stop changing the subject, it seems like all you do.

You accused the Qur'an of claiming Jesus to be a false messiah, yet I gave you verses which blatantly state that the Qur'an sees Jesus as the true messiah.
Don't give me more of your irrelevant replies please. You have no idea what you're talking about.

ll, I dont know why a Satanist like you will be so upset.
Ask yourself the question.
Who is he that preaches another Christ?
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
And
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Therefore, anyone teaching Jesus is the Issa of the Quran, is speaking a falsehood, and is from the Devil.
Sory guys, this is what God says.

 

[firedragon]

I won't start a new thread. I'll stick with:-
Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

I don't think you could help me...... well, you didn't offer anything, so I called an old work colleague A Muslim, and asked him.

He came straight back and sent this brief text to me, just to give me an idea about how some Muslims do believe that Jesus may well have been substituted, and how m,y suggestion about Pilate pardoning and freeing a much loved Jesus is not so impossible. He was very positive. Here it is:-

Islamic Traditions: A Replacement for the Messiah
The Qur’an states very clearly “…for of a surety they killed him (Jesus) not,” (see Qur’an 4:157-159) It further purports that not only was Christ not crucified but that Allah raised Him to Himself and those present were full of doubt. This has led many Muslim scholars to interpret that someone else died on the cross instead of Jesus, the Messiah.

Sometimes it's handy to live in a multicultural country.

Some people believe is not the topic. Its the Quran and what it says. And you have changed your intention from the Bible now. So if you have a question about the Quran and the points in the OP, go ahead and clarify. That is brother, if you can understand relevance.

 

[firedragon]

Again,I have yet to find a Muslim who can explain the Quran 4:157
It says:
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Some people say they Killed Jesus:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ."
Then Allah say, No they are wrong, they did not crucify or kill Jesus!
And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him;
And Allah continue to say that he made some other to resemble Jesus dying on the cross!
but [another] was made to resemble him to them.
Allah also say that the people who say they killed Jesus ae in doubt if Jesus was crucified or not!
And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption.
And Allah assures us that Jesus was not killed by people who clain they did kill him.
And they did not kill him, for certain.

Now tell me where I am wrong.
If Allah say he made a resembling object that was Crucified and killed...
Who was the people who Allah made this resemblance of Jesus on the cross for?

In other words.
Did people see a "Jesus" dying on the cross?

Well, it does not say "he made a resembling object that was Crucified and killed..."

 

[firedragon]

This is not true.
It is the most crucial piece of evidence proving that the Jesus of the Quran is not the historical Jesus at all.
How are one to answer someone making a claim, if not giving him the exact error of his claim, a new thread is not appropriate at all.

Nope. The subject is not what really happened to Jesus before or after or during crucifixion or anything of the sort, neither is the subject about what the Bible says, nor is it about the Quran saying or not saying what really happened to Jesus and all of these possibilities etc. This is about the man Jesus, and these points said in the OP. Cheers.

 

[oldbadger]

I have already explained to you that he had for his companion Luke who wrote the third gospel.

Straw man!
Where exactly does it say that Paul asked Like to write his gospel? Rubbish, methinks.
Even Luke bothered to collect writings and copy/compile them in to his own gospel. written for Theophilus ..... nothing to do with any requestv by Paul.

Straw man.

So you don't believe in the Nativity accounts?
You think that account is a straw man?
Wow! OK.

Because there is no record of him after that time, except the preaching of his death and resurrection.

There are many records of him after that time..... you just don't want to research them.

 

[eik]

Straw man!
Where exactly does it say that Paul asked Like to write his gospel? Rubbish, methinks.
Even Luke bothered to collect writings and copy/compile them in to his own gospel. written for Theophilus ..... nothing to do with any requestv by Paul.

Your irrelevant points and questioning is something of an admission of defeat. Your original point which I am sticking with was that Paul knew nothing of the life of Christ, whereas he clearly did as he as his companion was the writer of the third gospel!

So you don't believe in the Nativity accounts?
You think that account is a straw man?
Wow! OK.

I did not raise the subject of the nativity. I raised the subject of Christ's origination. I am sorry you cannot discern the distinction.

There are many records of him after that time..... you just don't want to research them.

None of any credibility.

 

[oldbadger]

Some people believe is not the topic. Its the Quran and what it says. And you have changed your intention from the Bible now. So if you have a question about the Quran and the points in the OP, go ahead and clarify. That is brother, if you can understand relevance.

So which part of :
The Qur’an states very clearly “…for of a surety they killed him (Jesus) not,” (see Qur’an 4:157-159)
................ didn't you understand as relevant?

I was given chapter line and verse for that......... brother.....

And which part of Pilate pardoning/releasing a man called Jesus son of the Father, so loved by the people cannot connect with the above in some way?

The Islamic Jesus is the same Jesus as the Gospel Jesus, and Jesus is an historic figure. That's not too hard to show. And since I'm neither Muslim nor Christian I've hardly got an agenda driving me to see that.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Well, it does not say "he made a resembling object that was Crucified and killed..."

My dear friend.
I am astonished that you would go to such lengths to deny what the verse says.
Why do you fight it?
Do you have a problem with the words of Allah?
Now again, the Quran say:

1. there are people who boast that they killed the Issa messiach.
2. But they did not kill him, or crucified him.
3. But it was made to appear!!!!!!!

So, What was made to appear?
Jesus on the cross or not?