Is Russia Still Socialist?

[Revoltingest]

But...even if Putin throughout the 21st century had never dared invade or annex any territory, he still would have been considered an enemy of the wealthiest banking dynasties of the planet.

It's essential to recognize the degrees of enmity.
When you don't invade your neighbors, relations
are far far more friendly.

So...if Patrushev will be the most peaceful president on Earth, these elites would still hate him and Russia for keeping all that wealth and resources which they crave for.

You might be surprised at the reaction if Patrushev
assumed power & ended Russian aggression.
It's dangerous to assume that all hostilities are
permanent...this can lead to very bad decisions.

 

[F1fan]

Well, all forms of force and stealing is socialism. But please don't apply critical thinking on that, as it can't be doubted.

So bank robbery and drug dealing is Socialism? Interesting. Finish your claim with more details.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So bank robbery and drug dealing is Socialism? Interesting. Finish your claim with more details.

It was a joke. Sorry, I though this one gave it away

 

[Revoltingest]

Whether somebody chooses to call it "socialism" or "fascism" is largely irrelevant in my opinion, merely an expression of whether or not the speaker approves.

The examples you gave of Germany & China are useful.
Both had elements of socialism akin to Russia's, ie, the
more hands off kind of control of the means of production,
as opposed to direct micro-management.

Note that I'm not calling Russia "socialist". I'm simply
discussing its surviving the USSR's dissolution in a
new & different form. Think of it as not "socialism",
but "socialistic" or "socialism-lite".

 

[Nakosis]

You think those things are mutually exclusive?
Nah....socialist governments are typically fascist.
An Putin's Russia is textbook fascism.
Definition of fascism | Dictionary.com
Excerpted...
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

I'd see the opposite of fascism would be communism.
The opposite of capitalism would be socialism.

So fascism could use either capitalism or socialism as an economic policy.
Russia seems to incorporate elements of capitalism but remains more socialist than the USA.

Communism I suspect is more a mythical utopia. Marx's heaven for the proletariat.

Fascism is more how much control is given to the government.

 

[Suave]

Yes, there is capitalism in Russia these days. But the Kremlin
still exercises control, albeit with a long leash. If any business
fails to behave as directed by government, that business can
be nationalized for immediate & direct control.

Russian Tycoon Criticized Putin’s War. Retribution Was Swift.
Excerpted....
Oleg Y. Tinkov was worth more than $9 billion in November, renowned as one of Russia’s few self-made business tycoons after building his fortune outside the energy and minerals industries that were the playgrounds of Russian kleptocracy.

Then, last month, Mr. Tinkov, the founder of one of Russia’s biggest banks, criticized the war in Ukraine in a post on Instagram. The next day, he said, President Vladimir V. Putin’s administration contacted his executives and threatened to nationalize his bank if it did not cut ties with him. Last week, he sold his 35 percent stake to a Russian mining billionaire in what he describes as a “desperate sale, a fire sale” that was forced on him by the Kremlin.

“I couldn’t discuss the price,” Mr. Tinkov said. “It was like a hostage — you take what you are offered. I couldn’t negotiate.”

Mr. Tinkov, 54, spoke to The New York Times by phone on Sunday, from a location he would not disclose, in his first interview since Mr. Putin invaded Ukraine. He said he had hired bodyguards after friends with contacts in the Russian security services told him he should fear for his life, and quipped that while he had survived leukemia, perhaps “the Kremlin will kill me.”

It was a swift and jarring turn of fortune for a longtime billionaire who for years had avoided running afoul of Mr. Putin while portraying himself as independent of the Kremlin. His downfall underscores the consequences facing those in the Russian elite who dare to cross their president, and helps explain why there has been little but silence from business leaders who, according to Mr. Tinkov, are worried about the impact of the war on their lifestyles and their wallets.

I would classify Russian President Vladimir Putin as being.somewhat of a neo nationalist socialist who seeks to expand Russian culture in eastern Europe as well as liking the propagation of Russian state sponsored Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Augustus]

Yes, there is capitalism in Russia these days. But the Kremlin
still exercises control, albeit with a long leash. If any business
fails to behave as directed by government, that business can
be nationalized for immediate & direct control.

It's an illiberal democracy. A kleptocracy. A mafia state.

It has little ideology other than power.

Putin is not unlimited in power, but if you want to make money, you need to toe the line. Support the regime and you can be corrupt as you like.

Socialists tried to build up industry and manufacturing, Russia is mostly content to export natural resources as these are much easier to control so the oligarchs remain more compliant.

For all it likes to invade weaker neighbours, the military has to remain pretty low in status so as not to be too much of a threat to the regime. Hence we see all of the problems they face when someone fights back.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'd see the opposite of fascism would be communism.
The opposite of capitalism would be socialism.

So fascism could use either capitalism or socialism as an economic policy.
Russia seems to incorporate elements of capitalism but remains more socialist than the USA.

Communism I suspect is more a mythical utopia. Marx's heaven for the proletariat.

Fascism is more how much control is given to the government.

I completely agree with that.
Fascism is about control. Not about economics.
Mussolini was a socialist who exploited fascists to get to the power. But he was not one of them.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's essential to recognize the degrees of enmity.
When you don't invade your neighbors, relations
are far far more friendly.
.

Which is light years away from Europe. We are speaking of two peoples who speak nearly the same language (they are very very similar) and practice the same religion.
In Switzerland you can see Germans, French, Italians, Protestants, Catholics, all living together.

 

[sun rise]

Technically Russia and China were and are state capitalist systems as defined in Wikipedia rather than socialist because state business are run theoretically for a profit and the workers don't control the means of production as would be the case in true socialist economies.

 

[metis]

... obsession with socialism...

Yep, as that's a game some people play.

Socialism largely came around as an attempt to avoid the ills of laissez faire capitalism because there was largely no safety net, so what it tried to accomplish is to create such safety nets to try and end dire poverty and its effects. This is basically not Putin's approach that entails his siphoning of money to the top as long as they cater to him-- that's fascism.

However, even diehard fascists well know they have to cater to the masses to some degree or lose favor and find their head and body being separated or stretched or whatever.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Another Russian (born in the Ukraine though) who hates what Putin is doing, and hence got out of Russia:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-gas-tycoon-who-defected-26846616

Russian gas tycoon who defected mid-invasion says Putin 'must be hanged' for his crimes - Igor Volobuyev fled Russia just days into the war and now feels the need to "repent" after two decades of support for the Kremlin - and he wants to see the president pay with his life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There are 2 kinds of ideology...
1) The kind that underlies what happens.
2) The kind that is claimed for public consumption.

IOW, you are what you do, not what you say.

Then surely you'd agree NK is a theocracy?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd see the opposite of fascism would be communism.

Definition of communism | Dictionary.com
1 a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2 (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

There is nothing in the primary definition to exclude fascism.
And the 2nd definition actually includes fascism.

The opposite of capitalism would be socialism.

Communism is more opposite of capitalism than socialism.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's an illiberal democracy. A kleptocracy. A mafia state.

I'd call it a "kleptocratic dictatorship".

 

[Revoltingest]

Then surely you'd agree NK is a theocracy?

That's one way to view it, ie, Dear Leader is a god.
I see an oppressive dictatorship with religious overtones.

 

[Ponder This]

Yes, there is capitalism in Russia these days. But the Kremlin
still exercises control, albeit with a long leash. If any business
fails to behave as directed by government, that business can
be nationalized for immediate & direct control.

Russian Tycoon Criticized Putin’s War. Retribution Was Swift.
Excerpted....
Oleg Y. Tinkov was worth more than $9 billion in November, renowned as one of Russia’s few self-made business tycoons after building his fortune outside the energy and minerals industries that were the playgrounds of Russian kleptocracy.

Then, last month, Mr. Tinkov, the founder of one of Russia’s biggest banks, criticized the war in Ukraine in a post on Instagram. The next day, he said, President Vladimir V. Putin’s administration contacted his executives and threatened to nationalize his bank if it did not cut ties with him. Last week, he sold his 35 percent stake to a Russian mining billionaire in what he describes as a “desperate sale, a fire sale” that was forced on him by the Kremlin.

“I couldn’t discuss the price,” Mr. Tinkov said. “It was like a hostage — you take what you are offered. I couldn’t negotiate.”

Mr. Tinkov, 54, spoke to The New York Times by phone on Sunday, from a location he would not disclose, in his first interview since Mr. Putin invaded Ukraine. He said he had hired bodyguards after friends with contacts in the Russian security services told him he should fear for his life, and quipped that while he had survived leukemia, perhaps “the Kremlin will kill me.”

It was a swift and jarring turn of fortune for a longtime billionaire who for years had avoided running afoul of Mr. Putin while portraying himself as independent of the Kremlin. His downfall underscores the consequences facing those in the Russian elite who dare to cross their president, and helps explain why there has been little but silence from business leaders who, according to Mr. Tinkov, are worried about the impact of the war on their lifestyles and their wallets.

I would say that Russia does not value freedom. For example, Russia ranks 126 out of 165 countries using a human freedom index according to World Population Review.

Capitalism invests more power in the individual to own or regulate the means of production, distribution, and exchange and Socialism invests more power in "the community" to own or regulate the means of production, distribution, and exchange (aka ruling power or government). Russia ranks 101 out of 165 countries on terms of economic freedom. I would say this suggests Russia is still strongly socialist.

Of course, Russia is listed as a socialist nation by others as well as themselves, notwithstanding that people outside of Russia may be inclined to describe it as a "thuggish dictatorship" or as "an experiment in communism gone wrong". Russia is also described as a federation, which does not in any way preclude it's status as a socialist country. Whether or not it is fascist (exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition) also does not preclude it being a socialist country.

Some people might debate that countries can be socialist and not be like Russia, but at the end of the day, I don't think it makes that much sense to say that Russia itself is not socialist just because we imagine that some other country could be socialist and not be like Russia.

The OP gives an anecdote of a tycoon having the bank he founded be nationalized by Russia. Nationalization is not necessarily for a socialist agenda (it can be). However, a lack of proper compensation is a hallmark of socialism, which holds that no compensation is due to the individual (holding that the assets always belonged to the state). The capitalist approach holds that just or adequate compensation is due to the individual (to whom it belonged). I understand that Mr Tinkov may have been forced to sell, but the real question in this case is probably whether or not he was adequately compensated as an individual.

Russian Tycoon Oleg Tinkov Sells Bank Stake To Oligarch Vladimir Potanin

Shares of Tinkoff’s holding company TCS Group Holdings, which had a joint listing on the London and Moscow Stock Exchanges, plunged more than 90% following the start of the conflict on February 24. Its shares have since resumed trading on the Moscow Stock Exchange but remain suspended in London. The terms of the sale to mining magnate Potanin, Russia’s richest man, were not disclosed though the company’s market cap was recently $650 million, suggesting Tinkov might get somewhere around $225 million. Forbes estimates that Tinkov was worth over $7.7 billion at his peak.​

It's possible that Mr. Tinkov wasn't particularly well compensated, but I suppose it's also possible that the loss is due to the overall decline in value of Russian companies? Neither option bodes well for Russia.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's one way to view it, ie, Dear Leader is a god.
I see an oppressive dictatorship with religious overtones.

I see more than overtones. More like the entire base of it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, there is capitalism in Russia these days. But the Kremlin
still exercises control, albeit with a long leash. If any business
fails to behave as directed by government, that business can
be nationalized for immediate & direct control.

Russian Tycoon Criticized Putin’s War. Retribution Was Swift.
Excerpted....
Oleg Y. Tinkov was worth more than $9 billion in November, renowned as one of Russia’s few self-made business tycoons after building his fortune outside the energy and minerals industries that were the playgrounds of Russian kleptocracy.

Then, last month, Mr. Tinkov, the founder of one of Russia’s biggest banks, criticized the war in Ukraine in a post on Instagram. The next day, he said, President Vladimir V. Putin’s administration contacted his executives and threatened to nationalize his bank if it did not cut ties with him. Last week, he sold his 35 percent stake to a Russian mining billionaire in what he describes as a “desperate sale, a fire sale” that was forced on him by the Kremlin.

“I couldn’t discuss the price,” Mr. Tinkov said. “It was like a hostage — you take what you are offered. I couldn’t negotiate.”

Mr. Tinkov, 54, spoke to The New York Times by phone on Sunday, from a location he would not disclose, in his first interview since Mr. Putin invaded Ukraine. He said he had hired bodyguards after friends with contacts in the Russian security services told him he should fear for his life, and quipped that while he had survived leukemia, perhaps “the Kremlin will kill me.”

It was a swift and jarring turn of fortune for a longtime billionaire who for years had avoided running afoul of Mr. Putin while portraying himself as independent of the Kremlin. His downfall underscores the consequences facing those in the Russian elite who dare to cross their president, and helps explain why there has been little but silence from business leaders who, according to Mr. Tinkov, are worried about the impact of the war on their lifestyles and their wallets.

True, I had heard that billionaires have no control over him, but rather he controls them. The sanctions of billionaires in Russia will have no effect.

 

[Truthseeker]

Indeed. That is utterly wrong.
But that does not mean that the State does not use that money to build schools and hospitals.

However, Putin should not control all that money and give so much to himself. There is little benefit from such a state as this.