Is it possible to proselytize from a place of humility?

[GoodbyeDave]

It's possible to advance ones beliefs with out rudeness, certainly, although many fail. But what's so great about being "humble"? Christians may think it a virtue, but to me it's a vice.

 

[robocop (actually)]

This question has developed over time via a rather large array of attempts made at my conversion that have never once seemed humble in origin to me. And I thought to start this thread today after a particularly interesting attempt at proselytizing that happened just yesterday as I was walking my dogs. If you care to read about it, open the "spoiler" below.

Spoiler: How not to proselytize 101

A mildly unkempt man in modest attire and a backpack approached as a few girls stopped to admire the puppy I was walking. I was attempting to keep my larger dog (a lab-pit mix) away because she is a rescue dog and tends to be unpredictable around people when outside, due to who knows what from her past. My big dog ended up barking at one of the girls (no biting, mind you), and the man proceeded to inform me that I should carry around a rod to beat the dog with when it gets out of line. When I told him she was a rescue, and was in all other respects a complete sweetheart, he proceeded to let me in on the idea that carrying a rod to subdue animals has Biblical origins.

That's when we got into real discussion, and I was not the least bit shy to tell him that I don't believe that The Bible is a universally accepted authority, and used many of the arguments/questions/points I have honed over time here on this site to head him off at every (predictable) objection he felt compelled to make, and every piece of scripture he seemed to expect take up permanent roots in my psyche.

Ultimately, as tends to be the case very often when proselytizers have run out of steam, he turned to an ad hominem-type statement, saying that if I took his prescribed advice regarding belief and study of scripture to heart I "would realize how vile I actually [am]." Mind you, I had not once insulted him. The closest I may have gotten was when he made some remark about believing fantastical things and I remarked sarcastically that "Yes, and witches can do magic, and deserve to be burned at the stake." to which he immediately, and with all honestly replied "Yes, they can." Then proceeded to ask me how I could explain the claims of some woman a town or two away who claimed to have received a necklace from a demon. I told her she was very likely delusional. And THAT is the closest I ever got in the entire conversation to saying anything about this man personally... and it wasn't even about him. Otherwise I was nothing but civil the entire time, rational through and through, not even raising my voice at any moment.

Observing his mannerisms, and the way he wielded scripture, I pegged him for one of those types who believe themselves either the second coming of the messiah, or at the very least a contemporary prophet. He was outspoken against modern church organizations, and very much eschewed separated factions/sects/denominations of Christianity - basically also one of those types who claims that no one (except themselves obviously) is "doing Christianity right." My suspicions were confirmed when later my wife posted about the encounter online, and someone replied that they saw us talking to him, and that he frequently walked his way all over town spreading his message, and had only recently started wearing shoes on his treks - where before he wore none purposefully in order to "be more like Jesus."

TLDR: The guy turned to (mild) insult when confronted with the idea that I wasn't going stock-accept his preaching, and that I had ideas greatly alternative to his own that I was just as fervent about. This sort of thing has happened so often (in "real life" as well as online) that it is definitely not limited to just a one-time anecdote. I literally can't remember a single attempt at proselytization that didn't end in the proselytizer telling me, or at least strongly hinting at the idea that I was arrogant, debase, going to hell, or "vile." And it seems very likely that, in their minds, I HAVE TO be some of those things to deny God - which is a complete load of crap. Good luck selling your worldview with a mindset like that! "The customer is ALWAYS WRONG." Nice.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

It's easy to proselytize from a place of humility when you are the servant of those you preach to.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't believe in evangelism. Words are cheap. I see how one acts and I let my actions speak for me.

I liked the toucan in cereal commercials. Just follow my nose! It always knows! He was selling fake food though.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

Tupperware party?

 

[Kapalika]

I only believe in reverse prostelytization ; I try my best to convince you to NOT convert not my religion, while also being very informative about the contents of said systems. Not everyone is suited for Satanism, Trika, ect and this creates a filter to weed out those who aren't serious while not making a situation where they go to less reputable sources (because of course my sources are the most reputable, if I didn't believe they were I'd change my sources).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I'm new. Read my other thread about active and passive (you said actively prosyletizing). Active IS superior.

I can tell you though, that active will NEVER work on someone like me.

Toward the end of the conversation, the guy I was talking to likened the scripture and God's influence to a weapon that he was wielding at me. And I told him: "Well friend, I have a shield the likes of which you have never seen." I am just as fervent in my non-belief as any believer is in their faith. Until there is evidence or personal experience to the contrary there will be absolutely nothing another human being can say, nor any (normal) feat they can enact that will change my mind. It really is as simple as that.

It is arrogance to presume that a belief set that you hold about the spiritual realm - a realm wholly unknowable and unprovable by anyone - is superior to another's belief set. I have no belief set about such a realm, and that's the way it has to be.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Tupperware party?

Ooh... I don't know. I have known too many people who are closet-haters of Tupperware parties.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's easy to proselytize from a place of humility when you are the servant of those you preach to.

I would figure this approach more of a "passive" proselytizing. And yes, I imagine this works in leaps and bounds over trying to simply engage someone in direct conversation.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This question has developed over time via a rather large array of attempts made at my conversion that have never once seemed humble in origin to me. And I thought to start this thread today after a particularly interesting attempt at proselytizing that happened just yesterday as I was walking my dogs. If you care to read about it, open the "spoiler" below.

Spoiler: How not to proselytize 101

A mildly unkempt man in modest attire and a backpack approached as a few girls stopped to admire the puppy I was walking. I was attempting to keep my larger dog (a lab-pit mix) away because she is a rescue dog and tends to be unpredictable around people when outside, due to who knows what from her past. My big dog ended up barking at one of the girls (no biting, mind you), and the man proceeded to inform me that I should carry around a rod to beat the dog with when it gets out of line. When I told him she was a rescue, and was in all other respects a complete sweetheart, he proceeded to let me in on the idea that carrying a rod to subdue animals has Biblical origins.

That's when we got into real discussion, and I was not the least bit shy to tell him that I don't believe that The Bible is a universally accepted authority, and used many of the arguments/questions/points I have honed over time here on this site to head him off at every (predictable) objection he felt compelled to make, and every piece of scripture he seemed to expect take up permanent roots in my psyche.

Ultimately, as tends to be the case very often when proselytizers have run out of steam, he turned to an ad hominem-type statement, saying that if I took his prescribed advice regarding belief and study of scripture to heart I "would realize how vile I actually am." Mind you, I had not once insulted him. The closest I may have gotten was when he made some remark about believing fantastical things and I remarked sarcastically that "Yes, and witches can do magic, and deserve to be burned at the stake." to which he immediately, and with all honestly replied "Yes, they can." Then proceeded to ask me how I could explain the claims of some woman a town or two away who claimed to have received a necklace from a demon. I told her she was very likely delusional. And THAT is the closest I ever got in the entire conversation to saying anything about this man personally... and it wasn't even about him. Otherwise I was nothing but civil the entire time, rational through and through, not even raising my voice at any moment.

Observing his mannerisms, and the way he wielded scripture, I pegged him for one of those types who believe themselves either the second coming of the messiah, or at the very least a contemporary prophet. He was outspoken against modern church organizations, and very much eschewed separated factions/sects/denominations of Christianity - basically also one of those types who claims that no one (except themselves obviously) is "doing Christianity right." My suspicions were confirmed when later my wife posted about the encounter online, and someone replied that they saw us talking to him, and that he frequently walked his way all over town spreading his message, and had only recently started wearing shoes on his treks - where before he wore none purposefully in order to "be more like Jesus."

TLDR: The guy turned to (mild) insult when confronted with the idea that I wasn't going stock-accept his preaching, and that I had ideas greatly alternative to his own that I was just as fervent about. This sort of thing has happened so often (in "real life" as well as online) that it is definitely not limited to just a one-time anecdote. I literally can't remember a single attempt at proselytization that didn't end in the proselytizer telling me, or at least strongly hinting at the idea that I was arrogant, debase, going to hell, or "vile." And it seems very likely that, in their minds, I HAVE TO be some of those things to deny God - which is a complete load of crap. Good luck selling your worldview with a mindset like that! "The customer is ALWAYS WRONG." Nice.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

Cultists are problematic, but even new born agains are sometimes too much--I was IMO saved from Hell to simply trust Christ, rather than try to work my way to Heaven. I was excited and preached but wasn't very refined.

Of course you can share Jesus Christ humbly, He gave a wonderful gift. I grieve when someone rejects Jesus and says something stupid like, "I'd rather burn in Hell", but what can I do except humbly move on?

 

[Windwalker]

Therefore i can proselytize and listen about others faith also, because usually i know i'm right. Not cockiness but humbly.

When you are able to listen to others because you might be able to learn from their piece of the truth to add to your piece of the truth, then you will be humble.

 

[Windwalker]

It's possible to advance ones beliefs with out rudeness, certainly, although many fail. But what's so great about being "humble"? Christians may think it a virtue, but to me it's a vice.

Recognizing the virtue of humility is not a "Christian thing". It's a basic wisdom thing recognized in all religions. What is its main virtue? How can you learn anything when you assume you already have the answers? It has to do with having an open mind and heart. It's the cornerstone and key to any and all growth. That's why it is extolled as a virtue.

Those that think they have the answers, haven't really begun to grow yet, still clinging to their ideas for their sense of security, still holding onto fear of being "wrong" and therefore somehow "lost" or vulnerable. Humility is the key to true power, where you don't fear being "wrong" any longer, but are willing to be instructed by even those you view as "inferior" to yourself.

So, how is it a vice to you?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course you can share Jesus Christ humbly, He gave a wonderful gift. I grieve when someone rejects Jesus and says something stupid like, "I'd rather burn in Hell", but what can I do except humbly move on?

I think one of the main problems is in the "not moving on" when someone tells a prospective proselytizer that they don't believe in the first place. Granted, if someone simply isn't aware of Christ, The Bible, etc., or they have expressed some amount of interest, then you might talk over a few points... but the moment someone shows even slight disinterest it should be dropped.

It's no different from me coming to you and trying to talk about something I know about, but you don't care about. Like market research sample balancing. I could go on and on about this process, and what it takes when looking for something specific, like medical professionals, how much over-sampling you may need to do initially in some specific groups because return rates tend to be low (like for younger people - who tend to have better things to do than answer survey questions), etc. etc. etc. So, if I attempt to talk about this, and you show specific signs of disinterest, then I am only being a huge jerk if I keep on trying to bring the conversation back around to sample balances. Maybe I think I am trying to "save you" the hassle of learning all this on your own... but that is no excuse to waste a part of your life with something you simply don't care about. Much like I, and many others, do not care at all about "The Gospel."

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's possible to advance ones beliefs with out rudeness, certainly, although many fail. But what's so great about being "humble"? Christians may think it a virtue, but to me it's a vice.

Care to elaborate and make your case as to how humility can be seen as a "vice?"

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Humbly superior.

This seems oxymoronic to me. I don't see this as plausible.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

This question has developed over time via a rather large array of attempts made at my conversion that have never once seemed humble in origin to me. And I thought to start this thread today after a particularly interesting attempt at proselytizing that happened just yesterday as I was walking my dogs. If you care to read about it, open the "spoiler" below.

Spoiler: How not to proselytize 101

A mildly unkempt man in modest attire and a backpack approached as a few girls stopped to admire the puppy I was walking. I was attempting to keep my larger dog (a lab-pit mix) away because she is a rescue dog and tends to be unpredictable around people when outside, due to who knows what from her past. My big dog ended up barking at one of the girls (no biting, mind you), and the man proceeded to inform me that I should carry around a rod to beat the dog with when it gets out of line. When I told him she was a rescue, and was in all other respects a complete sweetheart, he proceeded to let me in on the idea that carrying a rod to subdue animals has Biblical origins.

That's when we got into real discussion, and I was not the least bit shy to tell him that I don't believe that The Bible is a universally accepted authority, and used many of the arguments/questions/points I have honed over time here on this site to head him off at every (predictable) objection he felt compelled to make, and every piece of scripture he seemed to expect take up permanent roots in my psyche.

Ultimately, as tends to be the case very often when proselytizers have run out of steam, he turned to an ad hominem-type statement, saying that if I took his prescribed advice regarding belief and study of scripture to heart I "would realize how vile I actually am." Mind you, I had not once insulted him. The closest I may have gotten was when he made some remark about believing fantastical things and I remarked sarcastically that "Yes, and witches can do magic, and deserve to be burned at the stake." to which he immediately, and with all honestly replied "Yes, they can." Then proceeded to ask me how I could explain the claims of some woman a town or two away who claimed to have received a necklace from a demon. I told him she was very likely delusional. And THAT is the closest I ever got in the entire conversation to saying anything about this man personally... and it wasn't even about him. Otherwise I was nothing but civil the entire time, rational through and through, not even raising my voice at any moment.

Observing his mannerisms, and the way he wielded scripture, I pegged him for one of those types who believe themselves either the second coming of the messiah, or at the very least a contemporary prophet. He was outspoken against modern church organizations, and very much eschewed separated factions/sects/denominations of Christianity - basically also one of those types who claims that no one (except themselves obviously) is "doing Christianity right." My suspicions were confirmed when later my wife posted about the encounter online, and someone replied that they saw us talking to him, and that he frequently walked his way all over town spreading his message, and had only recently started wearing shoes on his treks - where before he wore none purposefully in order to "be more like Jesus."

TLDR: The guy turned to (mild) insult when confronted with the idea that I wasn't going stock-accept his preaching, and that I had ideas greatly alternative to his own that I was just as fervent about. This sort of thing has happened so often (in "real life" as well as online) that it is definitely not limited to just a one-time anecdote. I literally can't remember a single attempt at proselytization that didn't end in the proselytizer telling me, or at least strongly hinting at the idea that I was arrogant, debase, going to hell, or "vile." And it seems very likely that, in their minds, I HAVE TO be some of those things to deny God - which is a complete load of crap. Good luck selling your worldview with a mindset like that! "The customer is ALWAYS WRONG." Nice.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

This question has developed over time via a rather large array of attempts made at my conversion that have never once seemed humble in origin to me. And I thought to start this thread today after a particularly interesting attempt at proselytizing that happened just yesterday as I was walking my dogs. If you care to read about it, open the "spoiler" below.

Spoiler: How not to proselytize 101

A mildly unkempt man in modest attire and a backpack approached as a few girls stopped to admire the puppy I was walking. I was attempting to keep my larger dog (a lab-pit mix) away because she is a rescue dog and tends to be unpredictable around people when outside, due to who knows what from her past. My big dog ended up barking at one of the girls (no biting, mind you), and the man proceeded to inform me that I should carry around a rod to beat the dog with when it gets out of line. When I told him she was a rescue, and was in all other respects a complete sweetheart, he proceeded to let me in on the idea that carrying a rod to subdue animals has Biblical origins.

That's when we got into real discussion, and I was not the least bit shy to tell him that I don't believe that The Bible is a universally accepted authority, and used many of the arguments/questions/points I have honed over time here on this site to head him off at every (predictable) objection he felt compelled to make, and every piece of scripture he seemed to expect take up permanent roots in my psyche.

Ultimately, as tends to be the case very often when proselytizers have run out of steam, he turned to an ad hominem-type statement, saying that if I took his prescribed advice regarding belief and study of scripture to heart I "would realize how vile I actually am." Mind you, I had not once insulted him. The closest I may have gotten was when he made some remark about believing fantastical things and I remarked sarcastically that "Yes, and witches can do magic, and deserve to be burned at the stake." to which he immediately, and with all honestly replied "Yes, they can." Then proceeded to ask me how I could explain the claims of some woman a town or two away who claimed to have received a necklace from a demon. I told him she was very likely delusional. And THAT is the closest I ever got in the entire conversation to saying anything about this man personally... and it wasn't even about him. Otherwise I was nothing but civil the entire time, rational through and through, not even raising my voice at any moment.

Observing his mannerisms, and the way he wielded scripture, I pegged him for one of those types who believe themselves either the second coming of the messiah, or at the very least a contemporary prophet. He was outspoken against modern church organizations, and very much eschewed separated factions/sects/denominations of Christianity - basically also one of those types who claims that no one (except themselves obviously) is "doing Christianity right." My suspicions were confirmed when later my wife posted about the encounter online, and someone replied that they saw us talking to him, and that he frequently walked his way all over town spreading his message, and had only recently started wearing shoes on his treks - where before he wore none purposefully in order to "be more like Jesus."

TLDR: The guy turned to (mild) insult when confronted with the idea that I wasn't going stock-accept his preaching, and that I had ideas greatly alternative to his own that I was just as fervent about. This sort of thing has happened so often (in "real life" as well as online) that it is definitely not limited to just a one-time anecdote. I literally can't remember a single attempt at proselytization that didn't end in the proselytizer telling me, or at least strongly hinting at the idea that I was arrogant, debase, going to hell, or "vile." And it seems very likely that, in their minds, I HAVE TO be some of those things to deny God - which is a complete load of crap. Good luck selling your worldview with a mindset like that! "The customer is ALWAYS WRONG." Nice.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

I don't think so. Granted, some street evangelists can put on an act and appear more humble than others. But every single one of them that I've encountered exhibits some level of arrogance, and it is quite amusing. Once I told an evangelist (actually a 19-20 year old kid who invited himself to my lunch table) that there is no way anyone can know what happens after we die. He insisted (with an air of childish stubbornness) that he knew with 100% certainty exactly what happens to people when they die. As hard as I tried not to be a jerk, I couldn't contain myself, and laughed loudly and uncontrollably at his childish combination of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[idea]

Aside from religious groups, what groups has everyone decided to join, and why? Excercise group, educational group, family group, gaming group etc... why did you join the group? How close are you to others in the group? How much do you agree with the teachings of the group?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This question has developed over time via a rather large array of attempts made at my conversion that have never once seemed humble in origin to me. And I thought to start this thread today after a particularly interesting attempt at proselytizing that happened just yesterday as I was walking my dogs. If you care to read about it, open the "spoiler" below.

Spoiler: How not to proselytize 101

A mildly unkempt man in modest attire and a backpack approached as a few girls stopped to admire the puppy I was walking. I was attempting to keep my larger dog (a lab-pit mix) away because she is a rescue dog and tends to be unpredictable around people when outside, due to who knows what from her past. My big dog ended up barking at one of the girls (no biting, mind you), and the man proceeded to inform me that I should carry around a rod to beat the dog with when it gets out of line. When I told him she was a rescue, and was in all other respects a complete sweetheart, he proceeded to let me in on the idea that carrying a rod to subdue animals has Biblical origins.

That's when we got into real discussion, and I was not the least bit shy to tell him that I don't believe that The Bible is a universally accepted authority, and used many of the arguments/questions/points I have honed over time here on this site to head him off at every (predictable) objection he felt compelled to make, and every piece of scripture he seemed to expect take up permanent roots in my psyche.

Ultimately, as tends to be the case very often when proselytizers have run out of steam, he turned to an ad hominem-type statement, saying that if I took his prescribed advice regarding belief and study of scripture to heart I "would realize how vile I actually am." Mind you, I had not once insulted him. The closest I may have gotten was when he made some remark about believing fantastical things and I remarked sarcastically that "Yes, and witches can do magic, and deserve to be burned at the stake." to which he immediately, and with all honestly replied "Yes, they can." Then proceeded to ask me how I could explain the claims of some woman a town or two away who claimed to have received a necklace from a demon. I told her she was very likely delusional. And THAT is the closest I ever got in the entire conversation to saying anything about this man personally... and it wasn't even about him. Otherwise I was nothing but civil the entire time, rational through and through, not even raising my voice at any moment.

Observing his mannerisms, and the way he wielded scripture, I pegged him for one of those types who believe themselves either the second coming of the messiah, or at the very least a contemporary prophet. He was outspoken against modern church organizations, and very much eschewed separated factions/sects/denominations of Christianity - basically also one of those types who claims that no one (except themselves obviously) is "doing Christianity right." My suspicions were confirmed when later my wife posted about the encounter online, and someone replied that they saw us talking to him, and that he frequently walked his way all over town spreading his message, and had only recently started wearing shoes on his treks - where before he wore none purposefully in order to "be more like Jesus."

TLDR: The guy turned to (mild) insult when confronted with the idea that I wasn't going stock-accept his preaching, and that I had ideas greatly alternative to his own that I was just as fervent about. This sort of thing has happened so often (in "real life" as well as online) that it is definitely not limited to just a one-time anecdote. I literally can't remember a single attempt at proselytization that didn't end in the proselytizer telling me, or at least strongly hinting at the idea that I was arrogant, debase, going to hell, or "vile." And it seems very likely that, in their minds, I HAVE TO be some of those things to deny God - which is a complete load of crap. Good luck selling your worldview with a mindset like that! "The customer is ALWAYS WRONG." Nice.

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

IMO, if a person approaching the interaction does so with the attitude that the religion they're peddling is necessarily better than the belief system that their prospect currently holds, regardless of what it is or how the prospect supported it, then the person is necessarily working in bad faith and with a lack of humility.

A humble proselytizer would be ready to throw away his own beliefs in favour of his prospects if he finds that his prospect's beliefs are better.

 

[WalterTrull]

Daddy, daddy, there's a strange man proselating, right in front of us. There are women here! Maybe even a child. Oh the humanity! Shoot him daddy, shoot him!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think one of the main problems is in the "not moving on" when someone tells a prospective proselytizer that they don't believe in the first place. Granted, if someone simply isn't aware of Christ, The Bible, etc., or they have expressed some amount of interest, then you might talk over a few points... but the moment someone shows even slight disinterest it should be dropped.

It's no different from me coming to you and trying to talk about something I know about, but you don't care about. Like market research sample balancing. I could go on and on about this process, and what it takes when looking for something specific, like medical professionals, how much over-sampling you may need to do initially in some specific groups because return rates tend to be low (like for younger people - who tend to have better things to do than answer survey questions), etc. etc. etc. So, if I attempt to talk about this, and you show specific signs of disinterest, then I am only being a huge jerk if I keep on trying to bring the conversation back around to sample balances. Maybe I think I am trying to "save you" the hassle of learning all this on your own... but that is no excuse to waste a part of your life with something you simply don't care about. Much like I, and many others, do not care at all about "The Gospel."

Have you worked in sales? I have, and people will often object and then buy. Also, many people hear the gospel many times in many ways before conversion.

Sometimes I share the gospel with someone and they say, "I'm an atheist, not interested," so I respond, "Really? Can you tell me more specifically why you aren't interested?" and then I wind up sharing anyway with an open-minded person!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Have you worked in sales? I have, and people will often object and then buy. Also, many people hear the gospel many times in many ways before conversion.

Sometimes I share the gospel with someone and they say, "I'm an atheist, not interested," so I respond, "Really? Can you tell me more specifically why you aren't interested?" and then I wind up sharing anyway with an open-minded person!

If you continue after it's clear that what you're doing is unwanted, then you're being disrespectful to that other person.

 

[tayla]

So what does anyone else think? Is it even possible to come off as humble (and therefore not in any way superior) to your chosen target when actively proselytizing your religious belief system? If so, what would that even look like?

Yes. If you actually respect the person. And if you find out first if they are even interested in hearing what you have to say. And if you allow them to express their views. And if you genuinely believe it is OK for them to have the views they do. And if you are a kind person generally, not prone to rage either on the road or elsewhere. It should be like sharing, not attempting to convert.