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Featured Is it or is it not possible for Adam and his descendants to have lived several hundred year lives

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Landon Caeli, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    I think it is possible. I think it is because my 4 month old puppy lost her baby teeth, and grew new teeth within 3 days, literally. She will also die much sooner than me, as this is my 6th dog, and they always die, and I always get a new one.

    It's all written in the DNA. And if the DNA says 400 years, then 400 years it shall be.
     
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    But what other primates live so long? How would such a lengthy lifespan have evolved and then been lost?
    Why is there no fossil or anatomical evidence for long lives in early hominins?
     
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  3. Shushersbedamned

    Shushersbedamned Well-Known Member

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  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I don't know is never an excuse for a myth.
     
  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    They originally had perfect DNA! With no copying of errors, no errors period, it would’ve continued to rejuvenate their bodies, forever, never growing old! (Remember, God told them, if they ate from the tree, then they would die. What if they had always obeyed that law? Interesting scenario to think about!)

    Something with our telomeres (on our chromosomes) getting shorter, could result in our aging....well, it’s been discovered that happens.

    Disobedience led to them becoming imperfect. And the longevity of the human race, being their descendants, was gradually reduced. Noah, the seventh generation from Adam, was 950 yo. at death. After the Flood, his sons apparently lived around 500 yo.

    Several generations later — example: Abraham — lifespans were around 175. Three generations later —Joseph — it was just over 100. Then three gens. after that, Moses wrote that ‘our years are 70-80’. It’s stayed around there ever since.

    Except for a few, like Jeanne Calment.
     
    #5 Hockeycowboy, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    There is an ancient Sumerian myth, that people like their kings lived thousands of years! (Often, those ancient myths have some truth mixed into their legends.)
     
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  7. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What evidence do we have of perfect DNA? How did this DNA develop? Why perfect DNA in such a poorly designed body?

    Again, evidence indicates early hominins had shorter lives and faster maturation than we do today.
    But all this is folklore! There is no actual evidence for any of this.

    If you're basing this on basing this on OT scripture, what evidence do you have that these scriptures are anything but folk tales?
     
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  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I don’t think we’re designed to live too far beyond 120 years. The oldest known person known was 122 year old.

    Genesis is full of allegory and much of it probably wasn’t meant to be taken as literal fact. The first nine chapters for example if taken literally would be overwhelmingly contradicted by science.
     
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  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    How would eating fruit from a tree change the way our DNA is replicated? Please tell us whatever potential mechanisms you’re considering.
     
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  10. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Even if your DNA grants you 400 years, crashing your car can change that fact.
     
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  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    (Sometimes one finds oneself beating one's head against a brick wall, and sometimes the brick wall is painfully apparent from a distance ...)
     
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    1000 in the Bible can be 1000 month = ca. 80 years. In 1300 and before the average was 32 years. 80 was very old [1000 makes no sense]
     
  13. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    A well lined kippa can help......... A little.
     
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  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It wasn’t just “eating fruit from a tree”.....it was what the act represented: a conscious rebelling against their Creator,,breaking a law, stealing.

    Because I’ve discussed this so much on this forum, and I’m tired .... hope you wont mind if I post a link?

    Revolt in Eden. God’s will as expressed to Adam and his wife was primarily positive, setting forth things they were to do. (Ge 1:26-29;2:15) One prohibitive command was given to Adam, that forbidding eating of (or even touching) the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. (Ge 2:16, 17; 3:2, 3) God’s test of man’s obedience and devotion is notable for the respect it showed for man’s dignity. By it God attributed nothing bad to Adam; he did not use as a test the prohibition of, for example, bestiality, murder, or some similar vile or base act, thereby implying that God felt Adam might have some despicable inclinations residing within him. Eating was normal, proper, and Adam had been told to “eat to satisfaction” of what God had given him. (Ge 2:16) But God now tested Adam by restricting his eating of the fruit of this one tree, God thus causing the eating of that fruit to symbolize that the eater comes to a knowledge that enables him to decide for himself what is “good” or what is “bad” for man. Thus, God neither imposed a hardship on the man nor did He attribute to Adam anything beneath his dignity as a human son of God.

    The woman was the first human sinner. Her temptation by God’s Adversary, who employed a serpent as a medium of communication (see PERFECTION [The first sinner and the king of Tyre]), was not through an open appeal to immorality of a sensual nature. Rather, it paraded as an appeal to the desire for supposed intellectual elevation and freedom. After first getting Eve to restate God’s law, which she evidently had received through her husband, the Tempter then made an assault on God’s truthfulness and goodness. He asserted that eating fruit from the prescribed tree would result, not in death, but in enlightenment and godlike ability to determine for oneself whether a thing was good or bad. This statement reveals that the Tempter was by now thoroughly alienated in heart from his Creator, his words constituting open contradiction plus veiled slander of God. He did not accuse God of unknowing error but of deliberate misrepresentation of matters, saying, “For God knows . . .” The gravity of sin, the detestable nature of such disaffection, is seen in the means to which this spirit son stooped to achieve his ends, becoming a deceitful liar and an ambition-driven murderer, since he obviously knew the fatal consequences of what he now suggested to his human listener.—Ge 3:1-5; Joh 8:44.

    As the account reveals, improper desire began to work in the woman. Instead of reacting in utter disgust and righteous indignation on hearing the righteousness of God’s law thus called into question, she now came to look upon the tree as desirable. She coveted what rightly belonged to Jehovah God as her Sovereign—his ability and prerogative to determine what is good and what is bad for his creatures. Hence, she was now starting to conform herself to the ways, standards, and will of the opposer, who contradicted her Creator as well as her God-appointed head, her husband. (1Co 11:3) Putting trust in the Tempter’s words, she let herself be seduced, ate of the fruit, and thus revealed the sin that had been born in her heart and mind.—Ge 3:6; 2Co 11:3; compare Jas 1:14, 15; Mt 5:27, 28.

    Adam later partook of the fruit when it was offered to him by his wife. The apostle shows that the man’s sinning differed from that of his wife in that Adam was not deceived by the Tempter’s propaganda, hence he put no stock in the claim that eating the fruit from the tree could be done with impunity. (1Ti 2:14) Adam’s eating, therefore, must have been due to desire for his wife, and he ‘listened to her voice’ rather than to that of his God. (Ge 3:6, 17) He thus conformed to her ways and will, and through her, to those of God’s Adversary. He therefore ‘missed the mark,’ failed to act in God’s image and likeness, did not reflect God’s glory, and, in fact, insulted his heavenly Father.

    Effects of Sin. Sin put man out of harmony with his Creator. It thereby damaged not only his relations with God but also his relations with the rest of God’s creation, including damage to man’s own self, to his mind, heart, and body. It brought consequences of enormous evil upon the human race.

    — Excerpt from Sin, I — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  15. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    It's a good point, lifespans are limited by pre-programmed parameters, in itself difficult to explain by a purely 'survival of the fittest' model

    Congrats on 6 dogs!
     
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  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, this is by far the most interesting I have read sofar on RF [others need not feel bad, I just love this verse best];)

    IMHO. Like you said it teaches us to "follow God's command, not our own fancies so to speak".
    Very nice you said "the eater comes to a knowledge that enables him to decide for himself what is “good” or what is “bad” for man".
    This is exactly what I believe and why I was so adamant in our previous discussion about "no one has the right to judge others' Belief System".

    Very important lesson I learned "Tell me your company I tell you who you are" [clearly taught in this verse also; Adam, Eve, Snake]
     
    #16 stvdv, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
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  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Sorry I’m late to reply.
    Regarding DNA, I think we’ll find out out one day. But according to the Scriptures (Bible), there were only 3 people who were ever perfect, and only one died perfect. Doubtful we’d ever find his remains!

    As 2001translation.com put it:


    “The Detailed Records
    Probably no historical record has been more scoffed at than the Bible. However, the facts show that if it weren’t considered a book of religion and it had only recently been discovered by archaeologists, it would be proclaimed the most significant find in all history. For its details as to family lines, lands of occupation, life spans, and events should provide positive proof to even the most skeptical observers that its accounts are genuine and accurate, because no one would go into such minute detail if they were simply creating a forged document. Oh, they could if they wished, but that would require a high level of sophistication and some very dark motives.

    Take for example the genealogies found at Genesis 4:17-5:31, 10:1-31, 11:10-32, 14:1-8, 21:32, 22:20-24, 25:1-4 & 12-19, 26:34, 28:6-19, 36:1-4 & 9-43, 38:1-5, 46:8-27, 48:7, Numbers 1:1-42, 2:5-32, 26:12-60, and 27:1, just to start with. The details in these accounts prove the Bible to be a compilation of amazingly accurate historical details.

    Also, read the genealogies that start in First Chronicles, and you’ll find many names of ancient people who went on to found cities and countries that we’re still familiar with today. Look at the long lists of names of people, then see who their fathers were and who they descended from, the things they did, etc. – things that nobody would be interested in today – and ask why anyone would make all of this up. How could anyone fake so much detail? Also realize that each of the names actually meant something in Hebrew, so they weren’t just a jumble of sounds.

    Consider the fact that few would question the authenticity of the Tomb of King David (although the current location is questionable), since it is so well documented by known accurate historians, such as Josephus. Notice that the Gospel writer Luke wrote in the book of Acts (in Chapter 2, verse 29):
    ‘It’s good to speak to you openly about the patriarch David; for he died, was buried, and his tomb is still with us to this day.’

    Yet, many modern critics claim that David never existed! Why would anyone say such a thing when there is no proof at all that he is fictional?

    And look at the meticulous records of the people who served in the court of King David, as can be found from 1 Chronicles 23 to the end of that book. Who they were, where they were from, to whom they were related, and what their positions were, is all listed in great detail.

    Consider the well-documented historical accounts of what happened when the king of Assyria attacked Judah during the time of King Hezekiah, then compare that to the Bible’s historical details as found in account at Second Chronicles 32.

    Also, notice how well 2 Kings 23:29 narrates the history of when the Egyptian Pharaoh Necho II fought against both the Assyrian army and the Judean King JosiAh (and won), and you’ll realize that this is accurately-recorded history!

    As for Moses and the Exodus; consider the detailed record of the travels of Israel from their place of departure from Egypt until they entered the Promised Land, as found at Numbers Chapter 33. Here you’ll see that it describes every little town that they traveled past, the directions they went, how long they stayed in each place, and even the geography of the land!

    Then look at the writings of Luke (Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts) in this Bible, and click on the dozens of links that show modern documentation of the names, the cities, the titles, and even a specific home (including a picture)… such detailed and proven documentation is virtually unparalleled in any other ancient writing!

    For a fact, the Bible is a vast wealth and storehouse of the history of ancient peoples, which through ignorance and prejudice goes unexplored by many. Consider for example, the records of the peoples and the trade goods they supplied to the Mediterranean trade port of Tyre in the Seventh Century BCE, as found in the Twenty-seventh Chapter of the Bible book of Ezekiel. Where else can such valuable records be found?

    oldest Bible text archeologists have discovered (of the Pentateuch) appears to date to the Seventh Century BCE… which is before the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon, and which dates to the time of the Solomon’s Temple. But despite the evidence provided by archeological finds, Bible critics have taught and are still teaching that there was no such temple in Jerusalem. WHY?

    Also, many have claimed that there was no King David, and that Jerusalem was just a backwater town during the time attributed to his reign. However, recent archeological discoveries at Tel Dan (northern Palestine) have uncovered a stele from the Ninth Century BCE that mentions the family line of David… and they are currently excavating a major structure that they think may actually prove to be David’s palace.

    Some have even gone so far as to claim that there was no ancient nation of Israel; yet, a granite stelecommemorating the victories of Pharaoh Merneptah, who is said to have reigned from 1212 to 1202-BCE (currently on display at the Cairo Museum) brags of a conquest of the nation of Israel along with the nearby Philistine cities of AshKelon, Gezer, and YanoAm.

    Yet, though claims that there was no nation of IsraEl have again been proven false by the findings of archeology, you still don’t read about such amazing finds in modern college textbooks!

    It is a fact that the Philistines whom we read about in the Bible really existed, for this has been documented by modern archeological discoveries of such major cities as AshKelon. And note that the land is still called Palestine today, which is just a Greek corruption of the name Philistine.”

    Take care.
     
  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    No, this is simply not true. As a history book it's pretty poor, nor does anyone seem interested in correcting the many errors and ambiguities.

    The 2nd edition of a science or history book will have the errors that slipped into the 1st edition corrected, yet biblical errors known to every linguist, historian and biblical scholar persist through thousands of editions and revisions. Apparently Bible believers are unconcerned with actual truth. What else can we conclude?

    The Bible is full of historical ambiguity and error. It can't even agree on the timeline of Jesus' life.
    You cite the Bible, I cite Harry Potter, someone else cites Narnia. We did this kind of 'battling references' thing for thousands of years and it never got us anywhere.

    But we're not even talking about biblical historicity. We're talking about biology, specifically, about longevity. What empirical or reasonable evidence do you have that ancient humans lived extraordinarily long lives? Archaeologists and paleontologists have found none. Age indicators in bones and teeth point to rather short lives, as a matter of fact.
     
    #18 Valjean, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  19. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    Yes, but it is necessary to know the language it was written in. Longevity is synonymous with prosperity. The days of old were more prosperous. Therefore the message of the writer is to return to the ways of the past.
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    No they weren't.
     
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