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Is it or is it not possible for Adam and his descendants to have lived several hundred year lives

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
As a history book it's pretty poor, nor does anyone seem interested in correcting the many errors and ambiguities.

Is that what the Bible is, a history book? It contains history, quite accurate too, but it’s purpose was not to be a history book!
“.....many errors”?
Sir Frederic Kenyon would disagree, As an acclaimed scholar and archeologist, he wrote:

“It may be disturbing to some to part with the conception of a Bible handed down through the ages without alteration and in unchallenged authority; but it is a higher ideal to face the facts, to apply the best powers with which God has endowed us to the solution of the problems which they present to us; and it is reassuring at the end to find that the general result of all these discoveries and all this study is to strengthen the proof of the authenticity of the Scriptures, and our conviction that we have in our hands, in substantial integrity, the veritable Word of God.“
The Story of the Bible, by Frederic G. Kenyon


Our Bible and the ancient manuscripts : Kenyon, Frederic G. (Frederic George), Sir, 1863-1952 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Bible is full of historical ambiguity and error. It can't even agree on the timeline of Jesus' life.

Another assertion without a reference?

You cite the Bible, I cite Harry Potter, someone else cites Narnia. We did this kind of 'battling references' thing for thousands of years and it never got us anywhere.

One major difference (among others): “Harry Potter” and “Narnia” were written to make money, for entertainment.
Not so with the Bible. **How it’s been used / abused, is not the Bible’s fault.**

What do you mean, “it never got us anywhere”?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is that what the Bible is, a history book? It contains history, quite accurate too, but it’s purpose was not to be a history book!
I was responding to your characterization of it as an accurate historical record in post #17.
“.....many errors”?
Sir Frederic Kenyon would disagree, As an acclaimed scholar and archeologist, he wrote:

“It may be disturbing to some to part with the conception of a Bible handed down through the ages without alteration and in unchallenged authority; but it is a higher ideal to face the facts, to apply the best powers with which God has endowed us to the solution of the problems which they present to us; and it is reassuring at the end to find that the general result of all these discoveries and all this study is to strengthen the proof of the authenticity of the Scriptures, and our conviction that we have in our hands, in substantial integrity, the veritable Word of God.“
The Story of the Bible, by Frederic G. Kenyon


Our Bible and the ancient manuscripts : Kenyon, Frederic G. (Frederic George), Sir, 1863-1952 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Another assertion without a reference?
References, then:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-major-historical-errors-in-the-Bible
The Problem of the Bible: Inaccuracies, contradictions, fallacies, scientific issues and more.




One major difference (among others): “Harry Potter” and “Narnia” were written to make money, for entertainment.
Not so with the Bible. **How it’s been used / abused, is not the Bible’s fault.**
Why does this make the Bible more authoritative the other two Harry Potter the entertainment books, the religious Narnia books and the propaganda book The Bible?

What do you mean, “it never got us anywhere”?
I mean human progress and learning was abysmally slow till we adopted a scientific perspective and began valuing evidence and critical analysis.[/quote]
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It wasn’t just “eating fruit from a tree”.....it was what the act represented: a conscious rebelling against their Creator,,breaking a law, stealing.

Because I’ve discussed this so much on this forum, and I’m tired .... hope you wont mind if I post a link?

Revolt in Eden. God’s will as expressed to Adam and his wife was primarily positive, setting forth things they were to do. (Ge 1:26-29;2:15) One prohibitive command was given to Adam, that forbidding eating of (or even touching) the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. (Ge 2:16, 17; 3:2, 3) God’s test of man’s obedience and devotion is notable for the respect it showed for man’s dignity. By it God attributed nothing bad to Adam; he did not use as a test the prohibition of, for example, bestiality, murder, or some similar vile or base act, thereby implying that God felt Adam might have some despicable inclinations residing within him. Eating was normal, proper, and Adam had been told to “eat to satisfaction” of what God had given him. (Ge 2:16) But God now tested Adam by restricting his eating of the fruit of this one tree, God thus causing the eating of that fruit to symbolize that the eater comes to a knowledge that enables him to decide for himself what is “good” or what is “bad” for man. Thus, God neither imposed a hardship on the man nor did He attribute to Adam anything beneath his dignity as a human son of God.

The woman was the first human sinner. Her temptation by God’s Adversary, who employed a serpent as a medium of communication (see PERFECTION [The first sinner and the king of Tyre]), was not through an open appeal to immorality of a sensual nature. Rather, it paraded as an appeal to the desire for supposed intellectual elevation and freedom. After first getting Eve to restate God’s law, which she evidently had received through her husband, the Tempter then made an assault on God’s truthfulness and goodness. He asserted that eating fruit from the prescribed tree would result, not in death, but in enlightenment and godlike ability to determine for oneself whether a thing was good or bad. This statement reveals that the Tempter was by now thoroughly alienated in heart from his Creator, his words constituting open contradiction plus veiled slander of God. He did not accuse God of unknowing error but of deliberate misrepresentation of matters, saying, “For God knows . . .” The gravity of sin, the detestable nature of such disaffection, is seen in the means to which this spirit son stooped to achieve his ends, becoming a deceitful liar and an ambition-driven murderer, since he obviously knew the fatal consequences of what he now suggested to his human listener.—Ge 3:1-5; Joh 8:44.

As the account reveals, improper desire began to work in the woman. Instead of reacting in utter disgust and righteous indignation on hearing the righteousness of God’s law thus called into question, she now came to look upon the tree as desirable. She coveted what rightly belonged to Jehovah God as her Sovereign—his ability and prerogative to determine what is good and what is bad for his creatures. Hence, she was now starting to conform herself to the ways, standards, and will of the opposer, who contradicted her Creator as well as her God-appointed head, her husband. (1Co 11:3) Putting trust in the Tempter’s words, she let herself be seduced, ate of the fruit, and thus revealed the sin that had been born in her heart and mind.—Ge 3:6; 2Co 11:3; compare Jas 1:14, 15; Mt 5:27, 28.

Adam later partook of the fruit when it was offered to him by his wife. The apostle shows that the man’s sinning differed from that of his wife in that Adam was not deceived by the Tempter’s propaganda, hence he put no stock in the claim that eating the fruit from the tree could be done with impunity. (1Ti 2:14) Adam’s eating, therefore, must have been due to desire for his wife, and he ‘listened to her voice’ rather than to that of his God. (Ge 3:6, 17) He thus conformed to her ways and will, and through her, to those of God’s Adversary. He therefore ‘missed the mark,’ failed to act in God’s image and likeness, did not reflect God’s glory, and, in fact, insulted his heavenly Father.

Effects of Sin. Sin put man out of harmony with his Creator. It thereby damaged not only his relations with God but also his relations with the rest of God’s creation, including damage to man’s own self, to his mind, heart, and body. It brought consequences of enormous evil upon the human race.

— Excerpt from Sin, I — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
That was a long-winded way of not answering my question. How does any of this translate to a physical mechanism to effect change in a physical thing - i.e. DNA or how it’s replicated?
 

Nate

New Member
Ageing is the result of telomere deterioration. Telomeres are a sort of cap on each end of a chromosome that's made of DNA, but isn't used as a basis for protein synthesis.
When DNA is replicated, because of the way the various enzymes bind to DNA, not the whole chromosome is copied, and as a result the ends get shorter with each replication.
The telomeres are there to stop genes themselves being shortened, but there's only about 80 years worth of telomere there to protect the genes in humans.
After that, the genes on the end of chromosomes start to deteriorate and there are health issues related to this that result in the eventual death of that human.
It seems to fly in the face of this well documented scientific principle that figures mentioned Genesis live to be hundreds of years old.

On another note, somewhere in this thread the conversation has become somewhat sidetracked with talk of the first sin, and I don't understand why people expected Eve and Adam to do anything but believe the snake and eat the fruit. They had never been exposed to a lie before, and have never had to make a decision based on facts.
Why should we expect them to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge? Because God told them not to? Is that really what we want to teach people? To not seek knowledge and truth purely because they were told not to by an authority?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I think it is possible. I think it is because my 4 month old puppy lost her baby teeth, and grew new teeth within 3 days, literally. She will also die much sooner than me, as this is my 6th dog, and they always die, and I always get a new one.

It's all written in the DNA. And if the DNA says 400 years, then 400 years it shall be.

You are right. It's a DNA stuff.

Humans can no longer live that long because, I bet, they ever interbred with other homo erectus such as the Neanderthals. Scientists actually located the Neanderthal genes inside humans.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are right. It's a DNA stuff.

Humans can no longer live that long because, I bet, they ever interbred with other homo erectus such as the Neanderthals. Scientists actually located the Neanderthal genes inside humans.
Where is there any evidence they ever lived that long? Whence this unique, human exceptionalism?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I think it is possible. I think it is because my 4 month old puppy lost her baby teeth, and grew new teeth within 3 days, literally. She will also die much sooner than me, as this is my 6th dog, and they always die, and I always get a new one.

It's all written in the DNA. And if the DNA says 400 years, then 400 years it shall be.
Or if the book says Methusala lived over 900 years then Methusala was an old man. As it is written.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
They originally had perfect DNA! With no copying of errors, no errors period, it would’ve continued to rejuvenate their bodies, forever, never growing old! (Remember, God told them, if they ate from the tree, then they would die. What if they had always obeyed that law? Interesting scenario to think about!)

Something with our telomeres (on our chromosomes) getting shorter, could result in our aging....well, it’s been discovered that happens.

Disobedience led to them becoming imperfect. And the longevity of the human race, being their descendants, was gradually reduced. Noah, the seventh generation from Adam, was 950 yo. at death. After the Flood, his sons apparently lived around 500 yo.

Several generations later — example: Abraham — lifespans were around 175. Three generations later —Joseph — it was just over 100. Then three gens. after that, Moses wrote that ‘our years are 70-80’. It’s stayed around there ever since.

Except for a few, like Jeanne Calment.
None of this is according to the text so it just seems like idle speculation.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
How would eating fruit from a tree change the way our DNA is replicated? Please tell us whatever potential mechanisms you’re considering.
Without anymore knowledge of the characteristics of the said fruit we are SOL when it comes to speculation. It seems we only have the text for clarification.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
roger1440 said:

Yes, but it is necessary to know the language it was written in. Longevity is synonymous with prosperity. The days of old were more prosperous. Therefore the message of the writer is to return to the ways of the past.


In what ways were these days of old more prosperous, and why do fossil hominins seem to have lived shorter lives than we do today, as evidenced by bone and tooth growth?

No matter how prosperous a life, no-one has ever been known to live much beyond a century. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be any particular lifestyle feature of supercentenarians that would distinguish them from thousands of their neighbors living similar lives. It appears to be largely the luck of the genetic draw.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
roger1440 said:

Yes, but it is necessary to know the language it was written in. Longevity is synonymous with prosperity. The days of old were more prosperous. Therefore the message of the writer is to return to the ways of the past.



In what ways were these days of old more prosperous, and why do fossil hominins seem to have lived shorter lives than we do today, as evidenced by bone and tooth growth?

No matter how prosperous a life, no-one has ever been known to live much beyond a century. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be any particular lifestyle feature of supercentenarians that would distinguish them from thousands of their neighbors living similar lives. It appears to be largely the luck of the genetic draw.
My starting point first learn the language . The language is not Hebrew, English or Latin. It's a much older language. The language of story tellers. Read between the lines. It is only when we understand what concept the author is convoying , then we can agree or disagree.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My starting point first learn the language . The language is not Hebrew, English or Latin. It's a much older language. The language of story tellers. Read between the lines. It is only when we understand what concept the author is convoying , then we can agree or disagree.
What does language have to do with this? The assertion that our ancestors lived extraordinarily long lives is a question of biology.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I think it is possible. I think it is because my 4 month old puppy lost her baby teeth, and grew new teeth within 3 days, literally. She will also die much sooner than me, as this is my 6th dog, and they always die, and I always get a new one.

It's all written in the DNA. And if the DNA says 400 years, then 400 years it shall be.
Then demonstrate that your DNA has far less telemeres than Adam's, because that is the determining factor.
 

Earthling

David Henson
I think it is possible. I think it is because my 4 month old puppy lost her baby teeth, and grew new teeth within 3 days, literally. She will also die much sooner than me, as this is my 6th dog, and they always die, and I always get a new one.

It's all written in the DNA. And if the DNA says 400 years, then 400 years it shall be.

What about the environment? At Genesis 1:9 God creates a canopy of water surrounding the earth. 2 Peter 3:5-6 God uses the canopy to flood the earth. The lifespan falls from 800-900 to 120's (not to be confused with the 120 year period in which God warned there would be a flood)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What about the environment? At Genesis 1:9 God creates a canopy of water surrounding the earth. 2 Peter 3:5-6 God uses the canopy to flood the earth. The lifespan falls from 800-900 to 120's (not to be confused with the 120 year period in which God warned there would be a flood)


Someone has little knowledge of geography, geology, anthropology, paleontology, history and genetics
 
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