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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You said that it was in the Tanakh, and then quoted the NT. It hardly proved your point.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The New Testament parallels Old Testament prophecies and there is no evidence that they had any reason to edit them to fit their beliefs. Believing that the Messiah would be the deliverer of the Jews from the Romans is more convenient than believing that the Messiah is a Savior.
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Look, my friend. If you want to say that something is in the Tanakh, then you have to quote the proper verses in the Tanakh that prove your point.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    What evidence is there that the Christians edited the prophecies or had a reason to do so? In Malachi 3:1 God refers to Himself as the Messiah. Malachi 3:1

    Me and the Lord is an expression that mirrors Genesis 1:26.

     
  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 18:20 mirrors the Christian doctrine of sin being an offense against God and God being holy and just.

    It doesn't contradict the doctrine of original sin, because the context of the verse is not about Adam and Eve.
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The one who will prepare the way is Elijah, not the Messiah.

    Christians warped the prophecies in many ways.
    1. They pulled verses out of context, seeing prophecies where none existed, such as ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1 is clearly about the exodus.
    2. They mistranslated verses, both nouns and the conjugations of verbs, such as Isaiah 7:14 which is in past tense: "A young woman has conceived..."
    3. They made up verses out of whole cloth, verses that exist no where in the Tanakh, such as "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew 2:23
     
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    But that wasn't the original point you were making.
     
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Whether Malachi was referring to John the Baptist or Elijah during the tribulation, what he said supports the New Testament. God's messenger preparing the way before God sounds like it's a reference to God being the Messiah, because it mirrors what Job said in Job 19:25-27 about his redeemer standing at the latter day upon the earth.

    The first Christians were called Nazarenes by some people. What evidence is there that verse was made up? There are different translations of the Old Testament.
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    My translation of Ezekiel 18:20 exists in the Tanakh with no meaningful differences.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to indicate that the Messiah will be God. The messiah is simply a man, Skywalker.

    The Notzrim (Nazarenes) were the early Jewish believers who remained a sect of Judaism. When they were kicked out of the Synagogues, they ceased to exist. Gentiles came to dominate the church, and they didn't obey Jewish law. Indeed by the 2nd century, they were defining themselves in contrast to the Jews.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    While I don't believe the Old Covenant is mandatory for even Jewish believers, I don't think Messianic Jewish sects following Judaism is contrary to following the New Covenant.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Christ didn't live up to expectations of the Orthodox sect, and God is not subject to the expectations of humans. The teachings of the rabbis on who the Messiah is are based on the Israelite faith, but it's not a direct continuation of it. The rabbinic Jewish view of the Messiah is based off the teachings of the Pharisees, who were biased in that they opposed Christ.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    A man could not take the iniquity of us all upon him. Similar to Lucifer being the son of the morning wasn't literal, Jesus being the Son of God isn't literal and is a reference to Jesus being God. Isa al-Mesih

     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    That is not the duty of the Messiah. The duty of the Messiah is to govern during the Messianic era.
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    If Isaiah 53 means that the Messiah took on the iniquity of us all there is no way that he could be a man because the price of sin is eternal separation from God and only an infinite God could be the bridge between God and humanity.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Again, for the umpteenth time, Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is about Israel. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout the book of Isaiah, and is identified as Israel.
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Israel suffering doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant. The Suffering of Jesus and the Suffering of Israel: A Reflection on Isaiah 53


     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The metaphor of the servant is identified in Isaiah as being Israel.

    Isaiah 41:8
    “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,"

    Isaiah 44:1
    Israel the Chosen
    “But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen."

    Isaiah 44:21
    “Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you.

    Isaiah 45:4
    For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not

    He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    A judge having to be just with a criminal supports that the suffering servant is a Messiah who dies for the sins of people.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand. Nor does it make sense.
     
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