1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

Tags:
  1. ayin

    ayin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Ratings:
    +16
    Religion:
    Jewish
    When David killed righteous Uriah, was it God's will? When Israel forsook their God, was it God's will? When a person sins, is it God's will? Is everything God's will, or is there also coincidence?
     
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,466
    Ratings:
    +4,268
    Religion:
    Jewish
    in a basic sense, nothing can not be according to God's plan and foreknowledge. Attributing the human notion of "will" on to God will lead to misunderstandings.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Do you think God allowed Israel to forsake God because good came out of it?
     
  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    17,537
    Ratings:
    +8,031
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Did Israel forsake God?
    Well, this is not a debate section. Seems a presumptuous question though.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,466
    Ratings:
    +4,268
    Religion:
    Jewish
    I think that trying to assign "allowed" gets into all sorts of philosophical headaches. God "allows" people to make their own choices even though he knows what those choices will be.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Old Testament talks about Israel seeking other gods.
     
  7. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +1,750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The TaNaKh (not “Old Testament”) actually says that some of Israel turned to other gods but that there is always a righteous remnant among them that do not.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Do you think from the Exodus to now only a remnant of Israelites followed God?
     
  9. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +1,750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I am sad to say too many did not. You see any Sadducees lately? Or Karaites? They were once gantser k’nackers. But they abandoned HaShem, now they’re gone. Many Jews converted to other faiths. Their descendants have been lost as identified Jews. The Northern Kingdom followed other gods. They are lost and won’t be restored until Shiloh comes.

    It isn’t a question of numbers. It is a question of following HaShem. Don’t do that and you’re lost. Do it and you can never be lost. Shalom.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Do you think Jews who mix Jesus with being Jewish converted to other faiths? I think that the difference exists for historical reasons, but in the first century, it was how could you be Gentile and believe in Jesus? The Jewish Christians didn't have a different religion.
     
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    6,466
    Ratings:
    +4,268
    Religion:
    Jewish
    According to one understanding, initially, what became Christianity was just a sect of Judaism populated by a small group of people who followed a charismatic leader. They were excluded by the mainstream and branched out to people of other religions to build numbers because the mainstream wasn't buying in. There is even a belief that the particular texts and practices/beliefs were established by Jews in the mainstream to create a more visible difference between these believers and the majority who rejected Jesus.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,992
    Ratings:
    +2,677
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Jews who mix Jesus have converted to the Christian religion, even though they remain halakhicially Jewish. They simply aren't practicing Judaism any longer. They may call their religion Messianic Judaism, but it is not a Judaism. It is Christianity, or at best, a syncretism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    The historical separation between the two beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't practicing Judaism.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Psalm 22 isn't a prophecy. It's a prayer of a righteous sufferer who comes to the jaws of death and is miraculously delivered. Yet Jesus said that everything written up to his lifetime finds its full meaning and expression in him. He even applied Psalm 22 to himself on the cross. And in Psalm 22, as a result of the righteous sufferer's deliverance from death, all the ends of the earth will worship God. That's quite a significant deliverance from death. God's intent was not to keep Israel as an isolated nation, but that through Israel the entire world will come to know the one true God. That has always been his heart. We see in the scriptures that this messianic figure will be both priestly and royal-he will deal with sin as well as rule and reign. He will first suffer before he is raised up and exalted; he will both come riding on a donkey meek and lowly, as well as come in clouds of glory. He will first be rejected by his people and will be a light to the nations. He will suffer terribly for our sins as a righteous substitute. The power of his deliverance from death will cause the ends of the earth to worship the one true God. We also see that redemption had to come and there had to be a divine visitation before the second temple was destroyed in AD 70.
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    5,992
    Ratings:
    +2,677
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Oh, of course it does. When the rabbis kicked the heretical Christians out of the synagogues, meaning that it was no longer a sect of Judaism, it went on to form a new and distinct religion. Again, the Jewish sect of Jesus believers no longer exists -- it was a heresy that got kicked out forever.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    6,328
    Ratings:
    +6,537
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Of course it does. What do you get when you systemically don't follow the basic principles and tenets of a religion and uphold principles entirely foreign and even heretical to that religion? Answer: A different religion/worldview.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,421
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Based on 2 Sam. 11:11, Uriah had the status of a rebel who deserved death.

    Someone once told me, before it happens, it's forbidden, after it happens, it's what G-d wanted.
    I was also taught, every drop of milk that makes it into the carton you buy in the store was destined to you from the moment the world was created. Maybe there isn't anything except for G-d's Will.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,751
    Ratings:
    +507
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    No, it´s more likely the will, i. e. the interpretation of the priests and misused by secular powers.
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,783
    Ratings:
    +1,098
    Religion:
    Christian
    Nice point. And the expression 'Israel' can be applied in various ways. Just to say, there is the nation with geographical boundaries and there is a group of people as well with variances, such as lineage and affiliation.
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,783
    Ratings:
    +1,098
    Religion:
    Christian
    It would seem that if everything were God's will there would have been no rebellion against Him. Would a father encourage his children to be rebellious and not listen to him when he knows better? Deuteronomy chapter 1 helps to understand this. He instructs. He 'knows' the possibility is there for disobedience, Look at Deuteronomy chapter 1, it really makes clear that while God instructs, He also allows people to choose what they will do. If He knew in advance what they would do, why bother telling them what to do and what the penalties are if they disobey?
     
Loading...