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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You said that it was in the Tanakh, and then quoted the NT. It hardly proved your point.

The New Testament parallels Old Testament prophecies and there is no evidence that they had any reason to edit them to fit their beliefs. Believing that the Messiah would be the deliverer of the Jews from the Romans is more convenient than believing that the Messiah is a Savior.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The New Testament parallels Old Testament prophecies and there is no evidence that they had any reason to edit them to fit their beliefs. Believing that the Messiah would be the deliverer of the Jews from the Romans is more convenient than believing that the Messiah is a Savior.
Look, my friend. If you want to say that something is in the Tanakh, then you have to quote the proper verses in the Tanakh that prove your point.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Look, my friend. If you want to say that something is in the Tanakh, then you have to quote the proper verses in the Tanakh that prove your point.

What evidence is there that the Christians edited the prophecies or had a reason to do so? In Malachi 3:1 God refers to Himself as the Messiah. Malachi 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Me and the Lord is an expression that mirrors Genesis 1:26.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Look, my friend. If you want to say that something is in the Tanakh, then you have to quote the proper verses in the Tanakh that prove your point.

Ezekiel 18:20 mirrors the Christian doctrine of sin being an offense against God and God being holy and just.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

It doesn't contradict the doctrine of original sin, because the context of the verse is not about Adam and Eve.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What evidence is there that the Christians edited the prophecies or had a reason to do so? In Malachi 3:1 God refers to Himself as the Messiah. Malachi 3:1
The one who will prepare the way is Elijah, not the Messiah.

Christians warped the prophecies in many ways.
1. They pulled verses out of context, seeing prophecies where none existed, such as ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1 is clearly about the exodus.
2. They mistranslated verses, both nouns and the conjugations of verbs, such as Isaiah 7:14 which is in past tense: "A young woman has conceived..."
3. They made up verses out of whole cloth, verses that exist no where in the Tanakh, such as "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew 2:23
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The one who will prepare the way is Elijah, not the Messiah.

Christians warped the prophecies in many ways.
1. They pulled verses out of context, seeing prophecies where none existed, such as ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1 is clearly about the exodus.
2. They mistranslated verses, both nouns and the conjugations of verbs, such as Isaiah 7:14 which is in past tense: "A young woman has conceived..."
3. They made up verses out of whole cloth, verses that exist no where in the Tanakh, such as "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew 2:23

Whether Malachi was referring to John the Baptist or Elijah during the tribulation, what he said supports the New Testament. God's messenger preparing the way before God sounds like it's a reference to God being the Messiah, because it mirrors what Job said in Job 19:25-27 about his redeemer standing at the latter day upon the earth.

The first Christians were called Nazarenes by some people. What evidence is there that verse was made up? There are different translations of the Old Testament.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Whether Malachi was referring to John the Baptist or Elijah during the tribulation, what he said supports the New Testament. God's messenger preparing the way before God sounds like it's a reference to God being the Messiah, because it mirrors what Job said in Job 19:25-27 about his redeemer standing at the latter day upon the earth.

The first Christians were called Nazarenes by some people. What evidence is there that verse was made up? There are different translations of the Old Testament.
There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to indicate that the Messiah will be God. The messiah is simply a man, Skywalker.

The Notzrim (Nazarenes) were the early Jewish believers who remained a sect of Judaism. When they were kicked out of the Synagogues, they ceased to exist. Gentiles came to dominate the church, and they didn't obey Jewish law. Indeed by the 2nd century, they were defining themselves in contrast to the Jews.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to indicate that the Messiah will be God. The messiah is simply a man, Skywalker.

The Notzrim (Nazarenes) were the early Jewish believers who remained a sect of Judaism. When they were kicked out of the Synagogues, they ceased to exist. Gentiles came to dominate the church, and they didn't obey Jewish law. Indeed by the 2nd century, they were defining themselves in contrast to the Jews.

While I don't believe the Old Covenant is mandatory for even Jewish believers, I don't think Messianic Jewish sects following Judaism is contrary to following the New Covenant.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There have been many false messiahs. More Jews followed Shabbtai Tzvi. Some rabbis thought Bar Kochva was the messiah. Just like the Jews who followed Jesus, they were wrong.

Christ didn't live up to expectations of the Orthodox sect, and God is not subject to the expectations of humans. The teachings of the rabbis on who the Messiah is are based on the Israelite faith, but it's not a direct continuation of it. The rabbinic Jewish view of the Messiah is based off the teachings of the Pharisees, who were biased in that they opposed Christ.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to indicate that the Messiah will be God. The messiah is simply a man, Skywalker.

The Notzrim (Nazarenes) were the early Jewish believers who remained a sect of Judaism. When they were kicked out of the Synagogues, they ceased to exist. Gentiles came to dominate the church, and they didn't obey Jewish law. Indeed by the 2nd century, they were defining themselves in contrast to the Jews.

A man could not take the iniquity of us all upon him. Similar to Lucifer being the son of the morning wasn't literal, Jesus being the Son of God isn't literal and is a reference to Jesus being God. Isa al-Mesih

We have seen that in order to be a "son," one needs to have a special anointing. In the case of Adam, God breathed into him the breath of life. He was anointed with the breath of life. In the case of King Saul, his character changed. The Prophet David was given power by God. The Prophet Soloman was loved by God and given special wisdom.

We have also seen that the Hebrew word, Messiah, actually means "anointed one." This is important. Understanding Jesus Christ as "the Son of God," begins with acknowledging the fact that he is the Messiah (al-Mesih). According to the prophets who lived hundreds of years before Jesus Christ, the Messiah would be a man who would speak and act with the power and authority of God and would also be called with the names of God Almighty.

You may be thinking, "This is all too confusing. God would never use a term so confusing as 'the Son of God' to describe Isa al-Mesih!" Please consider this. In Pakistan and even in the Arab world, if a man's only child is a daughter, if she brings him great honour, if she bears his character or resemblance or if he simply loves his daughter dearly he may say, "This is my son." When a man is asked why he would call his daughter, his son, the frequent response is this, "Because of affection." The affection that a firstborn son would normally hold in his father's heart is the affection that this man holds for his daughter. The question is, "What kind of affection is this? What does it entail?" Physically, she is not his son at all! She's his daughter! But everyone knows exactly what he means. She came from him and submits to him. He loves her dearly like no other child, and may give her a special inheritance. To be called a "son" in this way is a great honour.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That is not the duty of the Messiah. The duty of the Messiah is to govern during the Messianic era.

If Isaiah 53 means that the Messiah took on the iniquity of us all there is no way that he could be a man because the price of sin is eternal separation from God and only an infinite God could be the bridge between God and humanity.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If Isaiah 53 means that the Messiah took on the iniquity of us all there is no way that he could be a man because the price of sin is eternal separation from God and only an infinite God could be the bridge between God and humanity.
Again, for the umpteenth time, Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is about Israel. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout the book of Isaiah, and is identified as Israel.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Again, for the umpteenth time, Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is about Israel. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout the book of Isaiah, and is identified as Israel.

Israel suffering doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant. The Suffering of Jesus and the Suffering of Israel: A Reflection on Isaiah 53


Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. (1 Who is God's servant who is mentioned there? The debate over this passage has produced a litany of polemical arguments. Christians use it as as evidence of Jesus' role as the Jewish Messiah, and Jewish scholars argue fervently that it refers to the nation of Israel. Christians read Isaiah's gripping depiction of undue suffering and see Jesus on the cross, atoning for the sins of mankind. Jewish readers see an equally gripping depiction of the undue suffering of Israel in diaspora at the hands of the Gentiles. Christians see their Messiah, while Jewish people see their family tree.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Israel suffering doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant. The Suffering of Jesus and the Suffering of Israel: A Reflection on Isaiah 53
The metaphor of the servant is identified in Isaiah as being Israel.

Isaiah 41:8
“But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,"

Isaiah 44:1
Israel the Chosen
“But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 44:21
“Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not

He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
 
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