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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Are you trying to say that the Holocaust was God judging Israel? Tread lightly.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I meant the invasions in the Old Testament. God didn't cause those invasions, he allowed them. I believe the Holocaust was related to spiritual force's hatred of the Jews. It was demonic, it had nothing to do with God.
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    So then you admit that there have been times Israel has suffered.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That's doesn't mean that Israel is the suffering servant. People did not esteem Israel stricken, struck by God and afflicted. That is a reference to the Messiah.
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Nah. Isaiah identified the servant as Israel. THAT is why Israel is the suffering servant.
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Israel is not the suffering servant because Israel is a nation and why would a nation metaphorically be born? What are the four Servant Songs in Isaiah? | GotQuestions.org

     
    #526 Skywalker, Jan 29, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Israel has ALWAYS been a nation. Whether or not we have the land to live on is irrelevant.

    Jesus OTOH is definitely not a nation.
     
  8. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    It's like how being Jewish is ethnic, religious, and cultural. Even after the diaspora Jews still have a certain tie to Israel. I didn't disagree that Israel was a nation it was a typo. My disagreement is I don't think that Israel could metaphorically be born. Jesus was born.
     
  9. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Israel was born with Israel and his sons. It was reborn with the Exodus and receipt of the Law at Sinai.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 49:5 says, "And now the Lord says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant". Israel is a nation not a person.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I already answred this. Do you not understand the concept of a metaphor?
     
  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Not quite. I once went through a similar list put out by a different messianic site and opened up almost all of the original sources (I couldn't find all of them; it's nice that this guy at least writes where he took his sources from).

    First of all, I would be weary of such lists. There are a number of sources that appear on both lists that I've simply debunked, for example, the quote of Rabbi Moshe Hadarshan is from a forgery made by Raymond Martini. It's true that Maimonides uses that particular verse to refer to the messiah - but not the rest of the chapter - and he uses it within a section of a letter in which he's attacking Christianity and mocking Jesus. One can easily imagine missionaries using such lists to segue to preaching Christianity, but usage of such quote-mined or even forged sources is simply dishonest.

    Second of all, It's true that some of the rabbis interpreted certain verses from 53 (or 52, parts of which, if I remember correctly, are considered to be in 53 according to the Christian division) to referring to the messiah, but as this person writes - pretty honestly, compared to that other list I mentioned - they don't say that the entire chapter refers to the messiah, just certain verses. Were we to ask them what they thought of the chapter in its entirety, perhaps, even likely, we would receive different answers in many cases. The rabbis are actually employing here a Talmudic technique called an "Asmachta" (אסמכתא) which means using certain verses as hints towards certain ideas, but never to suggest that that is the sole or even main interpretation of the verse and certainly not of the surrounding verses.

    Thirdly, his conclusion is, of course, highly debatable, because he brings some rabbinical views, not all. The article should be titled "What Some Rabbis Have Said About Parts of Isaiah 53".
     
    #533 Harel13, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
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  14. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Thanks for the input. I am unfortunately not very well versed in the Talmud or rabbinic writings, but I find them interesting and insightful, so it is one of my goals to delve into them a bit deeper. Because of that, I'll go with what you say, though you don't seem too think that everything on that list is in error. I do think it's interesting that some of the Rabbis see references to the Messiah in Isaiah 53, seems how most most of what I've read seems to indicate almost exclusively that it is only Israel who is being spoken of.
    Some of my issues with Isaiah 53 speaking of Israel are: whose iniquity/sickness is being placed on him, who was healed by his stripes, Israel was not cut off from the land of the living, etc. It also seems to be talking about two separate entities, as in 53:6:

    6All we like sheep did go astray,
    We turned every one to his own way;
    And the LORD hath made to light on him
    The iniquity of us all.

    And verse 8:

    8By oppression and judgment he was taken away,
    And with his generation who did reason?
    For he was cut off out of the land of the living,
    For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

    So I wonder how that can all be referring to Israel, or if it's not all about Israel, then what exactly you think it's saying. I hope that makes sense.
    I don't mean to derail the topic of this thread, so hopefully that's not the case.
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    In brief, 53 continues the idea established at the end of 52, that Israel as a nation would rise up and the nations of the world and their kings would make an important realization: that, historically, Israel has suffered even though the sins belonged to the other nations. The foreign kings speak in first person about how they and their people deserved punishment, but instead, the nation of Israel was punished. As the Ibn Ezra writes on verse 8, "For the transgression of my people was he stricken. Every nation will think: Israel was stricken because of our sins; comp. he was slain for our transgressions (ver. 5). The construction of the sentence is: For the transgression of my people plagues came over them. להם═למו To them, that is, to the Israelites."
     
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  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Well, I haven't gone through every source on that particular list yet. But luckily I found on archive.com the book he most quotes from, The Fifty-third chapter of Isaiah according to the Jewish interpreters : Neubauer, Adolf, 1832-1907 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. I'm going through it now; you can, too (the sources are in English). Neubauer also discusses Martini's trustworthiness in the beginning of the book, which is also worth reading. You may also be interested in the posts in this blog which are dedicated to debunking sources from that particular book.

    However, yes, some rabbis - including very great ones - used certain verses to teach certain things about the messiah (with the asmachta caveat I mentioned earlier). The one source that sticks out is Targum Yonatan (Jonathan) who does teach that the chapter - or at least much of it - refers to the messiah. What irks me is that this is used as evidence for the truth of Christianity, when the Targum also states in the same chapter that the messiah is to build the Temple and those that will keep the Torah - Oraita in the Aramaic of the Targum - will prosper. See here for an English translation of the Targum.
     
    #536 Harel13, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  17. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I see what you're saying. However, I still don't see in the tanach anything that would indicate Israel bears the iniquities of the nations, or suffered for the sins of the nations. Suffered on account of their wickedness, yes, but it seems pretty clear in the Torah that Israel suffers when they themselves sin and go contrary to God.
    And if I am understanding correctly, verse 6 would be the gentiles saying:

    All we like sheep did go astray, We turned every one to his own way;
    And the LORD hath made to light on him [Israel] The iniquity of us all.

    What is it they (the nations) were going astray from, since they were never in the covenant?
    And then verse 12:

    Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great,
    And he shall divide the spoil with the mighty;
    Because he bared his soul unto death,
    And was numbered with the transgressors;
    Yet he bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.

    The Torah specifies that Israel would become great and mighty because of YHWH's covenant with Abraham and because of His love for them, as it says in Deuteronomy 7:6-8, 12-13, etc., but not, as far as I know, because he "bared his soul unto death."
     
  18. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Thanks! I will have to look at those.
    One of my running projects/passions to objectively search out what the tanach has to say about the Messiah, without looking backwards and trying to fit Yeshua into it. So, I am not trying to use this persuade anyone that Yeshua is the Messiah, I just wanted to know if the view that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel was in some ways a reaction to the fact that it was being applied to Yeshua. And just to know the reasons for this interpretation in general. The resources are helpful, I appreciate the info!
     
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  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The servant of Israel is described as faithful. Israel has many times been unfaithful. Israel walked away from God and worshiped other gods throughout their history.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But remember, the section you are quoting is the perception that the other nations have -- it isn't an official pronouncement of divine ruling, but the other nations, realizing that they sinned and deserved punishment, and yet it was Israel that suffered, see Israel as getting punished when they, themselves should have been. As the Ibn Ezra writes, "In consequence of the troubles of Israel, the other nations had peace; the punishment which the latter deserved was inflicted upon the former."
    There is the Noachide covenant which they are bound by which forbids violence, and requires that all acknowledge God and the rectitude of the Torah - in which case, oppressing the nation which God has established a covenant with would be a problem.
    Israel becomes great for, among other reasons, its faith and its good deeds. There is a concept of reward, so as Israel has allowed itself to be the whipping boy for the world, and it has "bore the guilt of the many And made intercession for sinners" God assures additional reward. Also, from the Ibn Ezra "He prayed to God for the transgressors. Comp. Jer. 29:7"
     
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