If this pandemic/pestilece is a sign of the end..next sign is in the heavens

[dad]

I don't think I am the one who has trouble with logic...

I wouldn't expect you would.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

If this virus/pestilence is a sign, the next thing we might expect is great signs in the heaven.

Not comets or asteroids or supermoons probably. But great signs that absolutely stun people and probably have never been seen before.

I believe this to be a test or a warning - telling people to prepare for what has been prophesied to come.

I don't believe we are at the end times yet - but we are close.

 

[Tiberius]

I wouldn't expect you would.

And funnily enough, most people here don't think I have a problem with it either.

On the other hand, I;ve seen lots of people commenting on your logically flawed arguments, inability to produce good evidence and cluelessness as to what the burden of proof is.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The time compared to a woman in labor. The last seven years of man's history of rule on earth. Or, as the three gospels I cited say the beginning of sorrows.

Yes, I identify the 'time of sorrows' as the Tribulation period also. Daniel's 70th week. But I do not see any spectacular signs that will occur prior to the Tribulation period, other than what naturally can occur. My opinion.

This can become quite a complex discussion involving the comparison of (Matt. 24-25) with (Luke 21). Being able to identify what is being spoken of, either the Tribulation period or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. And, being able to apply the verses to the two questions asked by the disciples. (Matt. 24:3) When shall these be? What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?

With these questions, (Matthew) answers the second question of the sign but does not speak to the first question. (Luke) does however address the first question which will involve at times the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Because I hold to the Rapture also, and that it occurs just before the Tribulation, I do not believe there will be any spectacular signs given prior to the Tribulation for believers to recognize. Else we would not be looking for for that blessed hope, we would be looking for signs prior the Tribulation period. Again, just my opinion as there are many views concerning the Rapture, Tribulation, and the timing of them.

A great study, the Olivet Discourse.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[dad]

I believe this to be a test or a warning - telling people to prepare for what has been prophesied to come.

I don't believe we are at the end times yet - but we are close.

You may be correct.

Especially if you mean the last seven years when you say end times.

It seems that the first sign we are entering the seven-year time of sorrows will be a world war. Then we see earthquakes and pestilences and famines. (Probably it depends on where we live to what degree each of these will be, and which might come first) Then we see great signs in the heavens. If I see this sequence I will assume we have entered the seven years and that the Rapture is imminent if we are still here.

 

[dad]

And funnily enough, most people here don't think I have a problem with it either.

On the other hand, I;ve seen lots of people commenting on your logically flawed arguments, inability to produce good evidence and cluelessness as to what the burden of proof is.

Rather than gripe and whine, try to realize what thread you are posting in. Have you some Scriptural arguments on the topic? Or is this just a stalking/spam thing from another thread?

 

[dad]

Yes, I identify the 'time of sorrows' as the Tribulation period also. Daniel's 70th week. But I do not see any spectacular signs that will occur prior to the Tribulation period, other than what naturally can occur. My opinion.

You seem to be calling the seven-year period the tribulation, is this correct?

This can become quite a complex discussion involving the comparison of (Matt. 24-25) with (Luke 21). Being able to identify what is being spoken of, either the Tribulation period or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

By verse 25 it seems that it is even after the Great Tribulation or last three and a half years starts. The event that tells us that it started is the abomination of desolation idol that is set up in the holy place. (way back in verse 15)

If we realize that it is not the sign itself (earthquake etc) that really tells us where we are, but when the sign happens it avoids confusion. There are three times that I can see where similar signs occur.

Before the seven years
Just before and at the start of the seven years
In the seven years

Some of the signs and events in the seven years are easy to identify as they are beyond compare with anything in history.

And, being able to apply the verses to the two questions asked by the disciples. (Matt. 24:3) When shall these be? What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?

With these questions, (Matthew) answers the second question of the sign but does not speak to the first question. (Luke) does however address the first question which will involve at times the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Well, in both gospels I see the key phrase that seems to denote the last seven year period. The beginning of sorrows. The word translated as sorrows is associated with a woman in travail.

So, there is a little group of signs that is said to be the beginning of sorrows. There is a group of signs before this that is before that time. There is a group of signs following this that are in that last seven year time.

Because I hold to the Rapture also, and that it occurs just before the Tribulation, I do not believe there will be any spectacular signs given prior to the Tribulation for believers to recognize. Else we would not be looking for for that blessed hope, we would be looking for signs prior the Tribulation period. Again, just my opinion as there are many views concerning the Rapture, Tribulation, and the timing of them.

Correct, that has always been the teaching in bible believing churches that I am aware of. We are to be ready as if it could be today, yet sort of work and plan as if it might be way in the future.
However, as I discuss the topic here I noticed that there does seem to be a little group of signs that will mark the start of the period or labor pains in the end. As mentioned in the three gospels those signs are war, (earthquakes, pestilences and famine) and great signs in the sky.

It is possible that the Rapture could be one of those great signs in the sky! Even if the world cannot see us or Him in the sky, it could impact the sky and heavens in some big ways.

So we can't really, as believers pin the time for the Rapture. Looking at how the world is changing (getting ready for digital IDs, Bio medical chips, loss of freedoms, loss of use of cash etc) it does seem that the stage is being set with the final preparations and the curtain call could come any time. Therefore if this pestilence led to a major war (the talk of holding China accountable coupled with sudden atomic underground testing in China, shifting of B 52s from Guam - as well as increased tensions with Iran etc etc etc) then that war very well could be the war mentioned in the three gospels. It would be followed by the other signs that usher in the last seven years. So if I see a world sized war, and it leads to disease and food shortages and we also see some big quakes about this time.....I will probably assume I better get ready to meet Him pretty quick.

 

[InChrist]

So you're just waffling on about random things now? Please keep to the topic at hand, okay?

Far as I can tell the topic according to the OP is the signs which occur at the end of the age/ return of Christ. That’s the point I’m addressing and the verse I included is in direct reference to those who discount and deny the promise of Christ’s return and the signs He said would occur at the end of the age.

You appear to be randomly trying to bring the unrelated subject of “persecution” into the discussion.




“Is the Bubble about to Burst?

Within God’s timeline we reside in the Church Age or Age of Grace, which is a period where God has endured longsuffering as He has patiently prepared His Bride, the Church. For eternal salvation He only requires of Mankind that we make a free-will decision of faith in His Son, who died for our sins and rose from death to life after three days. He wants none to perish but all to obtain salvation (2nd Peter 3:9).*

Beyond the ultimate gift of His Son, God further graced Mankind with two other mighty gifts: The Holy Spirit to dwell in us and guide us in all things, and the mind of God, His Word. We are in an age truly blessed because we need but to believe in order to become Children of God.

However, according to the scriptures, this magnificent Age of Grace shall end. That is not an IF, but a WHEN. Beyond any doubt, COVID-19 is awakening many in Mankind from their deadly spiritual slumber. This is in preparation for what shall come upon the face of the earth before He Returns in Triumph.”


COVID-19: But the Calm Before the Storm :: By Joe Southerland - Rapture Ready

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

You may be correct.

Especially if you mean the last seven years when you say end times.

It seems that the first sign we are entering the seven-year time of sorrows will be a world war. Then we see earthquakes and pestilences and famines. (Probably it depends on where we live to what degree each of these will be, and which might come first) Then we see great signs in the heavens. If I see this sequence I will assume we have entered the seven years and that the Rapture is imminent if we are still here.

I agree that we are entering into the "home stretch" - but I don't personally believe in any kind of Rapture event.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Their deductions were not based on prophesy. Anyone can claim some new moon is a great sign, and offer a timetable till the exact day the world ends. Most Bible expositors and believers do not do that.

We know that one day the end period will come. The signs are for those living in it.

There have been lots of wars and earthquakes and famines, and pestilences, and unusual things in the sky. We are also in the last days since Jesus was here. Those signs did not indicate that the last seven years had started. That would be obvious to any or most people who mistook some signs pretty quickly.

Name a war that killed a quarter of the planet's population, and that involved Syria, Israel, Turkey, Russia, Libya and Jordan? Name an earthquake that made all mountains level and all islands move away from where they were? Name a sign in the sky that involved a third of the stars going out? Name any plague that happened to people with a mark in their forehead or hands needed to buy and sell by force of law and under penalty of death? Name a time when hundred pound hailstones fell on men? Name and earthquake that split the mount of Olives in two from east to west and left a big valley? Name a time when 2/3 of Israel was killed in a war and persecution? Etc.
Yes, prophecies are specific. The issue is whether early prophesies could tell us that this seven-year period was here or not, or even close. You see if it was near that would have implications. It would mean that believers were about to leave this world.
No man knows the day or the hour when He will return. However, we can know the signs of the times!

The ancients did consider most things that were lights in the sky were stars apparently. They did not use a modern science definition.
In some instances, such as a big star falling to earth and poisoning the seas, I could see where the star could be more of a heavenly object (space station, asteroid etc). In other instances where the heavens depart like a scroll and the earth has no light and has to use candles, it does seem like the sun and moon and stars are affected.

Their deductions were not based on prophesy.

Yes they were! They were based on the EXACT same prophecy that YOUR deductions are based on, it's just that THEY clearly interpreted that prophecy differently than YOU did.

Name a war that killed a quarter of the planet's population, and that involved Syria, Israel, Turkey, Russia, Libya and Jordan? Name an earthquake that made all mountains level and all islands move away from where they were?

EVERY single one of these questions you ask me, believers in the past asked themselves as well, however THEY looked around the world they lived in and they were able to convince themselves that ALL of the signs you listed HAD transpired, which in why they declared that the end times were happening during their lifetimes. You claiming that they misinterpreted the 'signs' supports my claim that the 'signs' in your bible can be interpreted incorrectly FAR too easily. Otherwise people wouldn't have been getting it wrong every generation for the past 2000 years.

 

[dad]

I agree that we are entering into the "home stretch" - but I don't personally believe in any kind of Rapture event.

OK. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Milton Platt]

It's sure hard to compete against evidence as reliable as a quote from Luke.



Be sure to get back to us when you see something.

Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

If this virus/pestilence is a sign, the next thing we might expect is great signs in the heaven.

Not comets or asteroids or supermoons probably. But great signs that absolutely stun people and probably have never been seen before.

Earthquakes happen daily in multiples. Please define "great".

 

[dad]

Their deductions were not based on prophesy.

Yes they were! They were based on the EXACT same prophecy that YOUR deductions are based on, it's just that THEY clearly interpreted that prophecy differently than YOU did.

Not really. If they knew that some of the signs they looked for actually would be expected before that final seven years they could not base anything on them. There are always some who will mess things up. People in Jesus' day would have known He was coming because the year was given in Daniel. Those who did not know were lazy or deceived or deceivers.

Name a war that killed a quarter of the planet's population, and that involved Syria, Israel, Turkey, Russia, Libya and Jordan? Name an earthquake that made all mountains level and all islands move away from where they were?

EVERY single one of these questions you ask me, believers in the past asked themselves as well, however THEY looked around the world they lived in and they were able to convince themselves that ALL of the signs you listed HAD transpired, which in why they declared that the end times were happening during their lifetimes. You claiming that they misinterpreted the 'signs' supports my claim that the 'signs' in your bible can be interpreted incorrectly FAR too easily. Otherwise people wouldn't have been getting it wrong every generation for the past 2000 years.

The signs of the very end, the last days of the Tribulation period could not possibly have been fulfilled now or at any time in history. That is insanity.

The signs like earthquakes which really are before the seven years, and begin the seven years, and are also at the end of the seven years would not tell anyone in history that we were there at the end.

This is one reason I think it helps to classify the signs into before, at the start of the seven years and those in the seven years.

 

[Jane Boswell]

Bible quotes will not get you as far as your sheer instinctual wits will.
Just image the adrenaline you last got from a "fight or flight" event. Maybe you were hanging off a cliff somehow or trapped in an elevator. These are extreme scenarios that illustrate a Will to be summoned, yes even the will to survive petty pathogens. And to meanwhile make lemonade out of lemons.

 

[dad]

Earthquakes happen daily in multiples. Please define "great".

As my last post said, it does not matter! Earthquakes are found in all the last days starting from the days of Jesus (and even before of course). So are the rest of the signs (except those totally devastating signs at the very very end).

Some signs were in the time before the last seven years of world history begins. Some signs (war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens) taken together mark the start of the seven years. And there are many signs in the seven-year period as well.

Now in the case of a great earthquake at the very very end, I will define that. One of the signature traits of the very end found in several prophesies and bible books is the great shaking. God arises to shake terribly the earth...and terms like this refer to it.
Thers is coming a shaking so great that every tower on earth will crumble! Every mountain will be flattened and almost level! That is a great quake. Now for a great sign in heaven, in the very end we see things like the sun and stars going dark, and heavenly objects crashing into earth and poisoning the oceans. Those are great signs! There likely will also be great signs even before this, what sort I don't know, but they will be GREAT! Not some questionable slightly colored or big moon, or ho-hum comet passing by!

 

[dad]

Bible quotes will not get you as far as your sheer instinctual wits will.
Just image the adrenaline you last got from a "fight or flight" event. Maybe you were hanging off a cliff somehow or trapped in an elevator. These are extreme scenarios that illustrate a Will to be summoned, yes even the will to survive petty pathogens. And to meanwhile make lemonade out of lemons.

People being clobbered by hundred-pound hailstones or who have mountains crumble and fall over them will not be worried about some little rush.

 

[Milton Platt]

As my last post said, it does not matter! Earthquakes are found in all the last days starting from the days of Jesus (and even before of course). So are the rest of the signs (except those totally devastating signs at the very very end).

Some signs were in the time before the last seven years of world history begins. Some signs (war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens) taken together mark the start of the seven years. And there are many signs in the seven-year period as well.

Now in the case of a great earthquake at the very very end, I will define that. One of the signature traits of the very end found in several prophesies and bible books is the great shaking. God arises to shake terribly the earth...and terms like this refer to it.
Thers is coming a shaking so great that every tower on earth will crumble! Every mountain will be flattened and almost level! That is a great quake. Now for a great sign in heaven, in the very end we see things like the sun and stars going dark, and heavenly objects crashing into earth and poisoning the oceans. Those are great signs! There likely will also be great signs even before this, what sort I don't know, but they will be GREAT! Not some questionable slightly colored or big moon, or ho-hum comet passing by!

I would counter that earthquakes occurred for billions of years before someone ever concocted the Jewish god. Therefore, they are irrelevant.

 

[Jane Boswell]

People being clobbered by hundred-pound hailstones or who have mountains crumble and fall over them will not be worried about some little rush.

"undefeated"? Very presumptuous.

 

[dad]

I would counter that earthquakes occurred for billions of years before someone ever concocted the Jewish god. Therefore, they are irrelevant.

I would counter that quakes before Jesus would not be signs of His RETURN! (as for your imaginary time claims, find a science thread and try to support them. Good luck with that.

 

[dad]

"undefeated"? Very presumptuous.

That was specially designed for the science areas of the forum. It is factual. As for prophesy threads, well, it is a bit of give and take.