If this pandemic/pestilece is a sign of the end..next sign is in the heavens

[gnomon]

I replied to a similar question somewhere else. Here it is

(the relevant part is bolded)

another forum...

OK. Fair enough. That would mean earthquakes as well as great signs in the heavens if this also was referring to the start of the very end period. Of course, there were earthquakes and etc before also. But the ones that kick off the time of tribulation, also known as labor pains (sorrows) are of particular importance here.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows

The sense could be, then, that just before or at the start of the very final period referred to as a woman in labor and the great time of tribulation such as the world has never seen, we will see these things. (not that they also to some extent also were not seen through history!)

That made no sense at all.

 

[dad]

If you are blessed at birth, you are already with god. So, there is no reason to be saved. You're not drowning.

So, inherited sin and salvation is better than inherited blessed and union with god?

Aka. You rather drown to be saved rather than saved from drowning? Why?

There is only what there is. Scripture says we are under sin. Your invented scenarios basically don't matter.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The frequency and severity of judgments increase drastically as we get near the end of the seven-year period. I would think that even the signs that are at the start of that seven-year period would be more severe than similar events in the past.

The issue here then is whether this particular pestilence is at the beginning of that time of sorrows, or prior to it like all other signs so far have been.

The above is NOT an answer to the question: Why did you claim that the outbreak of disease like we've been experiencing is more frequent and severe today when history shows that is clearly isn't?

If you're unwilling to answer my simple question just say so, but don't keep responding with things that have nothing to do with it.

Since you refuse to answer my question I can only conclude that the only reason you falsely claimed that this sort of disease if more frequent and severe than before is because you thought it would somehow bolster your argument. It doesn't. All it does is demonstrate that you are more than willing to speak falsehoods.

 

[dad]

I don't believe in the rapture, as such.

It is understandable that some do -as some wording is confusing -but all scriptures taken together show the last trump when the dead are raised, then the living are caught up with them in the air -is also the seventh trump of Revelation -when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord.

There is a trump when the dead are raised.

It mentions His voice is like a trumpet also.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In other words the dead folks already gone to be with Him will come back with Him when He returns.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

At this Rapture the trump of God sounds.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The departed bodies of the saints are raised up first then the believers which are alive.

That is indeed when one will be taken and another left, etc. -but happens at the last trump

The verse you cited said trump of God, not last trump!

.Those which sleep are the dead in Christ -whose spirits returned to God and who will be raised immortal from the dead then.

Then is the Rapture.

They do meet the Lord in the air at that point, but they do not ascend to heaven to come back with him later -they become kings and priests and reign with him on Earth

You made that up. It does not say we float around up in the sky and do not go to be where He is! In fact it is DURING the tribulation that the great marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven occurs. What, you thought He left millions of raised up believers floating down near the earth so they would not be there at the wedding supper?!

Some are protected from the time of "great tribulation" -but on earth.

Of course, they are. The harvest of that day will be great.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is only what there is. Scripture says we are under sin. Your invented scenarios basically don't matter.

That doesn't answer the questions. If what I'm saying is wrong, you have to at least address it by how not why. I can't take your opinion at face value unless you consider what I'm telling you by answering the questions and discussing it. Go further into the convo than repeating your points.

Why is it better to be saved when drowning rather than be saved from drowning?

 

[dad]

The above is NOT an answer to the question: Why did you claim that the outbreak of disease like we've been experiencing is more frequent and severe today when history shows that is clearly isn't?

It seems that way to me. Did the whole world shut down in the Spanish flu?

Did the world get quarantined in their homes? Did it cripple the economies of the world?

You seem unable to follow the flow of the thread here, I have suggested that there seem to be certain signs that directly precede the start of the last seven years.

Originally I was viewing the signs as a continuous thing that happened since Jesus' day primarily. The usual teaching I have heard about these is that they were always around since Christ, but that they would increase like labor pains growing more severe and frequent as we near the end.

As the thread progresses and looking at other opinions and facts, I started to ask if the signs that happened over history were really included in these signs that are mentioned that mark the beginning of sorrows.

I explained to you that I am taking a new approach now. Rather than looking at the signs as some long continuous series of signs, I am wondering if there are three groups of signs.
1)Before the seven years.

2) Just before and leading into the seven-year period.

3) Signs that come after the seven years start (during, and especially at the end)

 

[dad]

That doesn't answer the questions. If what I'm saying is wrong, you have to at least address it by how not why. I can't take your opinion at face value unless you consider what I'm telling you by answering the questions and discussing it. Go further into the convo than repeating your points.

What does your talk about mankind being blessed and not sinners have to do with the covid 19 thing?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What does your talk about mankind being blessed and not sinners have to do with the covid 19 thing?

You are literally avoiding the question on purpose.

All of our posts yours and mine had nothing to do with the COVID thing. So, don't switch shoes.

How is drowning to be saved better than being saved from drowning?

 

[dad]

You are literally avoiding the question on purpose.

All of our posts yours and mine had nothing to do with the COVID thing. So, don't switch shoes.

How is drowning to be saved better than being saved from drowning?

Ah, so you had no intention of discussing the topic. OK.
I do not need to invent questions about drowning men being saved. The bible says we need to be saved. I have not seen anyone that was not a sinner. Have you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ah, so you had no intention of discussing the topic. OK.
I do not need to invent questions about drowning men being saved. The bible says we need to be saved. I have not seen anyone that was not a sinner. Have you?

Dad. You brought up the drowning analogy, and I kept with it.

The question is why is being saved after one sins better than being saved from sin to begin with?

 

[QuestioningMind]

It seems that way to me. Did the whole world shut down in the Spanish flu?

Did the world get quarantined in their homes? Did it cripple the economies of the world?

You seem unable to follow the flow of the thread here, I have suggested that there seem to be certain signs that directly precede the start of the last seven years.

Originally I was viewing the signs as a continuous thing that happened since Jesus' day primarily. The usual teaching I have heard about these is that they were always around since Christ, but that they would increase like labor pains growing more severe and frequent as we near the end.

As the thread progresses and looking at other opinions and facts, I started to ask if the signs that happened over history were really included in these signs that are mentioned that mark the beginning of sorrows.

I explained to you that I am taking a new approach now. Rather than looking at the signs as some long continuous series of signs, I am wondering if there are three groups of signs.
1)Before the seven years.

2) Just before and leading into the seven-year period.

3) Signs that come after the seven years start (during, and especially at the end)

Did the whole world shut down in the Spanish flu?

Did the world get quarantined in their homes? Did it cripple the economies of the world?

The answer to the above questions is YES! It caused a global shut down, people were quarantined to their homes, and the economic effects were devastating. That's why you should REALLY learn a bit of history.

As for following the theme of your thread, note that I ONLY responded to your post claiming that pandemics are more frequent and severe than in the past in an attempt to get you to admit that it is a falsehood. I really don't care about the the topic of your thread, since I think it's pretty silly to suggest that there are 'divine signs' that people can read to determine the coming of some proposed 'end times'.

 

[dad]

Dad. You brought up the drowning analogy, and I kept with it.

The question is why is being saved after one sins better than being saved from sin to begin with?

Maybe man learned the hard way in a lot of areas? Maybe Adam chose that hard way? Maybe he chose the way that was not better?

 

[dad]

Did the whole world shut down in the Spanish flu?

Did the world get quarantined in their homes? Did it cripple the economies of the world?

The answer to the above questions is YES! It caused a global shut down, people were quarantined to their homes, and the economic effects were devastating. That's why you should REALLY learn a bit of history.

Since 20 million died in that flu it would be fair to say that the present pandemic does not seem more severe at least yet.

As for following the theme of your thread, note that I ONLY responded to your post claiming that pandemics are more frequent and severe than in the past in an attempt to get you to admit that it is a falsehood. I really don't care about the the topic of your thread, since I think it's pretty silly to suggest that there are 'divine signs' that people can read to determine the coming of some proposed 'end times'.

Jesus gave us signs to look for so we could determine when the end was.

It is safe to say that the signs including pestilences will be drastically more severe in the final days. Far far far more severe.

The thread is looking at any possible connection to this pandemic to the end time. Your point was valid and I factored that in by rethinking the signs and how we should look at them. If we look at them as the signs before the seven years end period, and the signs that usher in that period and then the signs after that seven year period starts, it seems to make a lot of sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe man learned the hard way in a lot of areas? Maybe Adam chose that hard way? Maybe he chose the way that was not better?

I read these over again. They don't address the question. They are also not answers but question with a question and it sounds like diversion than anything else.

Do you know the answer to the question?

How is salvation after one sins better than salvation from sinning?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Since 20 million died in that flu it would be fair to say that the present pandemic does not seem more severe at least yet.



Jesus gave us signs to look for so we could determine when the end was.

It is safe to say that the signs including pestilences will be drastically more severe in the final days. Far far far more severe.

The thread is looking at any possible connection to this pandemic to the end time. Your point was valid and I factored that in by rethinking the signs and how we should look at them. If we look at them as the signs before the seven years end period, and the signs that usher in that period and then the signs after that seven year period starts, it seems to make a lot of sense.

Since 20 million died in that flu it would be fair to say that the present pandemic does not seem more severe at least yet.

Glad to hear you finally acknowledge as much. Better late than never.

Jesus gave us signs to look for so we could determine when the end was.

I'm quite aware that there's a book claiming there was a Jesus who gave such signs. But there are plenty of books that make plenty of claims, so that holds little validity for me. However, even if there was a Jesus and he did give signs for the end times, it seems pretty obvious to me that he did a very poor job of it. After all, there have been people in every generation for the past 2000 years who have read about the exact same signs that you have and concluded that the end times would come during their life time. Yet, every single one of them turned out to be wrong. That suggests that the 'signs' are so vague or common that they can easily be wrongly interpreted by anyone and that anyone claiming that they have somehow figured it all out is probably deluding themselves.

That's why I find the entire concept to be rather silly.

 

[dad]

I read these over again. They don't address the question. They are also not answers but question with a question and it sounds like diversion than anything else.

Do you know the answer to the question?

How is salvation after one sins better than salvation from sinning?

Ask God. For better or worse He saved us sinners.

 

[dad]

Since 20 million died in that flu it would be fair to say that the present pandemic does not seem more severe at least yet.

Glad to hear you finally acknowledge as much. Better late than never.

OK, thanks.

I'm quite aware that there's a book claiming there was a Jesus who gave such signs. But there are plenty of books that make plenty of claims, so that holds little validity for me. However, even if there was a Jesus and he did give signs for the end times, it seems pretty obvious to me that he did a very poor job of it. After all, there have been people in every generation for the past 2000 years who have read about the exact same signs that you have and concluded that the end times would come during their life time.

I have not concluded that this sign or others in history are signs that the last seven years of world history have started.

In fact, as the thread wore on I suggested that it probably could not be one of the signs either after the seven years begins or in the batch of signs that introduce us to the beginning of that time. It likely falls into the signs before that seven year end period category.

Yet, every single one of them turned out to be wrong. That suggests that the 'signs' are so vague or common that they can easily be wrongly interpreted by anyone and that anyone claiming that they have somehow figured it all out is probably deluding themselves.

The signs in the final seven years are anything but vague. The 5 signs introducing that period seem fairly concise also. (war, famine, plagues, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens)

I think where a lot of the confusion may originate is when people consider all the earthquakes and etc that happened in the last few thousand years to be signs of the very end.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ask God. For better or worse He saved us sinners.

This isn't a personal question. It also doesn't answer the question.

Can you answer it with scripture if you can't in your own words?

How is inherited sin better than inherited blessings?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Ok. That was a well-articulated opinion.

On the flip side though, if there are some specific signs that herald the start of that last seven-year period, they also would prepare the world for what is coming.

In another forum, I expressed my opinion as below..

This is one reason I am exploring the possibility that there are three groups of those events.
1) Quakes, wars, pestilences etc before the last seven years.
2) These same sort of signs together just prior to and marking the start of the last seven years (beginning of sorrows)
3) The same sort of events with far greater frequency and degree increasing through the seven years, especially in the last 31/2 and most especially, quickly, frequently, and severity in the very last part of this Great Tribulation.

That would mean that yes, we have had pestilences and signs in heaven and etc before. And yes, in a broad sense these also are part of the last day events.

If there is a batch of signs marking the start of the labor pains/sorrows/last seven years then this is significant to believers.

With me, it is enough to recognize the way that the present day events line up with those end time events that are described in the Bible. In other words, like watching a play. When you see certain props on stage you have an idea of where we are at in the acts of the play.

The signs you speak of are for the Tribulation period, correct? So, should the believer in Christ not be concerned with the Second Coming of Christ as the Tribulation must occur first? In other words, are we to look for the Tribulation period which will be 7 years before Christ's second coming, instead of Christ's second coming.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[dad]

This isn't a personal question. It also doesn't answer the question.

Can you answer it with scripture if you can't in your own words?

How is inherited sin better than inherited blessings?

Inherited sin a bad thing. A blessing is a good thing. You cannot compare them. There is no blessing, you made that up. There is a world of sinners. Look around, does it all seem like a blessing to you?