If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[roger1440]

What's your understanding for the change?

Do you know why Herod had John the Baptist executed according to Josephus?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do you know why Herod had John the Baptist executed according to Josephus?

It was a political move to quell a pre emptive strike by the Jews on the Romans

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeshua's prophecies, that the world will be deceived by those that come after using the term "I Am" has happened (Luke 21:8), by the false gospel of John, and by Paul.

Whats the problem with John and Paul?

 

[wizanda]

Whats the problem with John and Paul?

Basically John is not the words or teachings of Yeshua, with numerous contradictions compared to the synoptic gospels, and Paul contradicts Yeshua on well over 36 points...

Both are teaching God sent his son to die (Balaam Teachings Micah 6:5-8), both are teaching human sacrifice is fine, that we should believe in jesus, that Israel/Jews are still a chosen people, that Isaiah 53 was saying it is OK to defile the law, making jesus into nearly being God, making a covenant with death, drinking the blood of an offering, etc...

There are so many points we can list, maybe start a topic on it or post in one of the topics specifically on each individually, and then can list all the numerous factors they've got wrong.

 

[roger1440]

It was a political move to quell a pre emptive strike by the Jews on the Romans

According to Josephus Herod had John the Baptist executed because John was very popular and influential among the Jews. Herod was fearful that John could start a rebellion. As a precautionary measure Herod had John permanently silenced. But according to the writings of Josephus and the Gospels there is no indication that John had any plans on starting a rebellion. Herod was not willing to gamble. There is a lot at stake here. Many lives would have been lost if John started a rebellion. Like the old saying goes, “an act of prevention is worth a pound of cure”. It would not have made any difference what John was preaching. Just being very popular among the Jews would have signed his death sentence.

“[18.118] Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late.” Jewish Antiquities
Josephus on John the Baptist - Livius

Now compare this to Jesus. A rural preacher goes to the big city. But not just any city, he goes to Jerusalem during Passover. Estimates are Jerusalem would have doubled or tripled in population in just a few days. The Roman authorities would have called in extra troops from the surrounding areas to keep the peace. We know this from the writings of Josephus. But we don’t need Josephus to tell us this. It would have been foolish not to have extra troops in town during that week. Not only would Passover attract devote Jews. People from all walks of life would have been pouring into town, Thieves, murderers, prostitutes, etc. With such a huge congestion of people in this city in such a short amount of time it wouldn’t take much to start a riot or rebellion. The Jewish and Roman authorities knew this. They were not stupid. According to the Gospel accounts Jesus was causing a commotion. A commotion that had to be stopped before it would escalate out of control. Jesus had to be silenced, permanently. The survival of the Jewish nation was at stake. It would have made no difference at all what Jesus was preaching.

49 But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” (John John 11:49-50)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Basically John is not the words or teachings of Yeshua, with numerous contradictions compared to the synoptic gospels, and Paul contradicts Yeshua on well over 36 points...

Both are teaching God sent his son to die (Balaam Teachings Micah 6:5-8), both are teaching human sacrifice is fine, that we should believe in jesus, that Israel/Jews are still a chosen people, that Isaiah 53 was saying it is OK to defile the law, making jesus into nearly being God, making a covenant with death, drinking the blood of an offering, etc...

There are so many points we can list, maybe start a topic on it or post in one of the topics specifically on each individually, and then can list all the numerous factors they've got wrong.

Thank you. It definitely another topic in its own right. So given you have a theology that differs from most mainstream Christianity, do you think it makes any difference answering the question Roger initially posted or there is a new insight that you can provide that a more conservative Christian wouldn't have?

 

[Dawnofhope]

According to Josephus Herod had John the Baptist executed because John was very popular and influential among the Jews. Herod was fearful that John could start a rebellion. As a precautionary measure Herod had John permanently silenced. But according to the writings of Josephus and the Gospels there is no indication that John had any plans on starting a rebellion. Herod was not willing to gamble. There is a lot at stake here. Many lives would have been lost if John started a rebellion. Like the old saying goes, “an act of prevention is worth a pound of cure”. It would not have made any difference what John was preaching. Just being very popular among the Jews would have signed his death sentence.

“[18.118] Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late.” Jewish Antiquities
Josephus on John the Baptist - Livius

Now compare this to Jesus. A rural preacher goes to the big city. But not just any city, he goes to Jerusalem during Passover. Estimates are Jerusalem would have doubled or tripled in population in just a few days. The Roman authorities would have called in extra troops from the surrounding areas to keep the peace. We know this from the writings of Josephus. But we don’t need Josephus to tell us this. It would have been foolish not to have extra troops in town during that week. Not only would Passover attract devote Jews. People from all walks of life would have been pouring into town, Thieves, murderers, prostitutes, etc. With such a huge congestion of people in this city in such a short amount of time it wouldn’t take much to start a riot or rebellion. The Jewish and Roman authorities knew this. They were not stupid. According to the Gospel accounts Jesus was causing a commotion. A commotion that had to be stopped before it would escalate out of control. Jesus had to be silenced, permanently. The survival of the Jewish nation was at stake. It would have made no difference at all what Jesus was preaching.

49 But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” (John John 11:49-50)

Thank you Roger for this interesting and thought provoking post. It all sounds reasonable and whatever Josephus's particular perspective it does help to better understand the nuances of history and the social/political/religious forces at play.

Do you think Josephus's perspective makes a difference in understanding whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and that His message was proclaimed not just to ordinary folk but to Jewish leaders as well?

 

[roger1440]

Thank you Roger for this interesting and thought provoking post. It all sounds reasonable and whatever Josephus's particular perspective it does help to better understand the nuances of history and the social/political/religious forces at play.

Do you think Josephus's perspective makes a difference in understanding whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and that His message was proclaimed not just to ordinary folk but to Jewish leaders as well?

In order to understand the Gospels it is necessary to read them from a first century Jewish perspective. These Gospels were written by Jews, for Jews using Jewish theology as a foundation. I have mentioned this about a half dozen times in the 4 years I been on this forum. Josephus is our major source for that time period. Historians don’t have much to work with when they exclude the writings of Josephus. His goal was to show the Roman Empire Judaism wasn’t some backward tribal religion. He has gone down in history as a trader to his own people, but he never left his roots. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. Two things tell me this. In one writing he mentions the Egyptians learned either math or science from Abraham. I forget which one it was. In one writing he mentions the Jews exodus from Egypt but conveniently leaves out the golden calf.

Josephus does mention Jesus in two of his writings. I question the authenticity of both of them.

 

[wizanda]

do you think it makes any difference answering the question Roger initially posted or there is a new insight that you can provide that a more conservative Christian wouldn't have?

As already stating, when we dissect the New Testament, to see where concepts come from Yeshua wasn't claiming to be the Messiah back then; John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) needed him to be, to fulfill what they were saying.

Instead Yeshua prophesied he as the Messiah is to come in a future context, as the Messianic age prophecies are fulfilled....

Now unlike Christianity, this all fits with the Tanakh in context, and with a lot more proof that it has all been fulfilled as specified, up to this point.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In order to understand the Gospels it is necessary to read them from a first century Jewish perspective. These Gospels were written by Jews, for Jews using Jewish theology as a foundation.

Theres no question that the Gospels were written by Jews with extensive references from the OT, none more so than Mathew. Mathew refers to the OT 60 times. There's also a very real issue of to what extent the gospels were adapted for a Greek audience given when they were written and the extent the Gospels were being taught beyond Judea.

Historians don’t have much to work with when they exclude the writings of Josephus.

If context is everything then we wouldn't have much to go on 2,000 years on. At some point much is obscured and eventually disappears. There are universal truths such as the timeless command to Love God and thy neighbour. However humanity desperately needs a Relevation from God to navigate the modern era. I can't see Christianity or even the Gospel of Christ meeting that need. Can you?

To elaborate the world of the Jews, Romans, and early Christains was one of empires, male domination, slavery, and low levels of literacy and education. The world today encompasses democracy and new forms of governance, the growing equality between men and women, universal education, environmentalism, globalisation, and the need to remove the extremes of wealth and poverty. World peace was vaguely hinted at by Isaiah but could only be faintly imagined by the people of a vastly different era.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As already stating, when we dissect the New Testament, to see where concepts come from Yeshua wasn't claiming to be the Messiah back then; John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) needed him to be, to fulfill what they were saying.

Instead Yeshua prophesied he as the Messiah is to come in a future context, as the Messianic age prophecies are fulfilled....

Now unlike Christianity, this all fits with the Tanakh in context, and with a lot more proof that it has all been fulfilled as specified, up to this point.

Reading the synoptic gospels it is very clear Mathew, Mark, and Luke thought He was the Messiah. Reference to the OT particularly in regard to Messianic fulfilment of prophecy abound.

 

[wizanda]

Reading the synoptic gospels it is very clear Mathew, Mark, and Luke thought He was the Messiah.

You're right the authors did...Yet I'm someone who goes on what a man has to say; not what others have to say about him.

Yeshua when asked by the Sanhedrin says, "you 'shall' see the son of man at the right hand side of God"; when he tells many of the parables about the wedding supper, feast, harvest, etc, all of these are in a future context.

Reference to the OT particularly in regard to Messianic fulfilment of prophecy abound.

Indeed, and many have different opinions to which are even in context; personally like to see how well the ideas add up across all of it, a lot seem to have many criteria not matching, and don't care due to it fulfilling their own personal interests.

 

[roger1440]

Reading the synoptic gospels it is very clear Mathew, Mark, and Luke thought He was the Messiah. Reference to the OT particularly in regard to Messianic fulfilment of prophecy abound.

How was or is Jesus the Messiah? What did he do?

 

[Dawnofhope]

How was or is Jesus the Messiah? What did he do?

He infused a new spiritual capacity into creation.

He resurrected the lifeless body of His believes to new spiritual life and illuminated the world with His Teachings.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You're right the authors did...Yet I'm someone who goes on what a man has to say; not what others have to say about him.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. John the Baptist said he was not. Who was right? What a man does is arguably much more important than what he says. Whether or not Jesus said He was the Messiah (and I believe He clearly did) the proof is in the affect the example of His life and Teachings had on His followers.

 

[roger1440]

He infused a new spiritual capacity into creation.

He resurrected the lifeless body of His believes to new spiritual life and illuminated the world with His Teachings.

He did all that? it can't even be proven he existed.

 

[wizanda]

Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. John the Baptist said he was not.

Yeshua was right, the gospel of John is made up, so when it says John says he isn't Elijah, that is fabricated to debunk the real prophetic fulfillment.

What a man does is arguably much more important than what he says.

Both count, 'a man is justified by his word, and by his word condemned' as well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

He did all that? it can't even be proven he existed.

Do the clouds obscuring the light of the sun disprove the existence of the sun? How do we account for the light? Faith is a precious gift. Perhaps it can be taken away in the twinkling of an eye....punishment for too much time on RF no doubt!

So what did Josephus say about Jesus and why do you question the authenticity of what is said?

The main reason I mentioned Caiaphus is that like the disciple Judas, he distinguished himself for all the wrong reasons. He was a man with a name to be wise but inwardly foolish. His learning and worldliness caused him to err when it counted the most. He knew the claims of the man He condemned to death. He simply chose to ignore them or reject them.

Perhaps like the sun behind the clouds it doesn't really exist. However we do know that sun of the Christian relevation rose and that of the Jews set not long after. Now the sun of the Christian revelation is fading fast. From where does the light of Divine Guidance shine now?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeshua was right, the gospel of John is made up, so when it says John says he isn't Elijah, that is fabricated to debunk the real prophetic fulfillment.

Or John the Bapist was the return of the spirit of Elijah, rather than a physical incarnation of Elijah. Then there is no contradiction.

Both count, 'a man is justified by his word, and by his word condemned' as well.

Agreed.

I haven't come across Christians that reject much of the New testament before. How many of you are there? What do you call yourselves? Hope you are OK about me asking. I'm open about my faith and assume most others are open about theirs.

 

[roger1440]

Do the clouds obscuring the light of the sun disprove the existence of the sun? How do we account for the light? Faith is a precious gift. Perhaps it can be taken away in the twinkling of an eye....punishment for too much time on RF no doubt!

So what did Josephus say about Jesus and why do you question the authenticity of what is said?

The main reason I mentioned Caiaphus is that like the disciple Judas, he distinguished himself for all the wrong reasons. He was a man with a name to be wise but inwardly foolish. His learning and worldliness caused him to err when it counted the most. He knew the claims of the man He condemned to death. He simply chose to ignore them or reject them.

Perhaps like the sun behind the clouds it doesn't really exist. However we do know that sun of the Christian relevation rose and that of the Jews set not long after. Now the sun of the Christian revelation is fading fast. From where does the light of Divine Guidance shine now?

Faith can also motivate people to murder, steal, destroy and enslave.