If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Dawnofhope]

Faith can also motivate people to murder, steal, destroy and enslave.

Thought you may be interested in this quote from the Baha'i writings:

"...religion must be the cause of fellowship and love. If it becomes the cause of estrangement then it is not needed, for religion is like a remedy; if it aggravates the disease then it becomes unnecessary." Abdu'l-Baha

 

[wizanda]

Or John the Bapist was the return of the spirit of Elijah, rather than a physical incarnation of Elijah. Then there is no contradiction.

Gilgul in Judaism is transmigration of the soul; there are so many contradictions in John, it is a waste of time using it as truth.

How many of you are there? What do you call yourselves?

I call myself Zanda, nice to meet you...

It isn't about rejecting the New Testament, it is recognizing the synoptic gospels are from Yeshua with a living gospel Vs the Pharisees (synagogue of Satan) John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) a.k.a Christianity, with their dead gospel.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Gilgul in Judaism is transmigration of the soul; there are so many contradictions in John, it is a waste of time using it as truth.

I call myself Zanda, nice to meet you...

It isn't about rejecting the New Testament, it is recognizing the synoptic gospels are from Yeshua with a living gospel Vs the Pharisees (synagogue of Satan) John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) a.k.a Christianity, with their dead gospel.

Hi Zanda, Nice to meet you too. I'm Adrian and am a Baha'i. Baha'is regard the books in the NT as inspired by God and largely authentic. We also believe that Muhammad like Jesus was a manifestation of God who brought a revelation from God to humanity through the Quran. After that came the Bab and Baha'u'llah the twin manifestations of God with a further revelation from God to assist humanity through the age we are living in now. We are a community of 5 - 7 million in practically every land.

As to the question addressed in regards to the Jewish Messiah, Jesus was that Messiah and as eluded to in one of your previous posts fulfilled OT many prophecies. Perhaps the best proofs we have are the books that make up the New Testament as well as the profound spiritual influence that has resulted from the Teachings of Christ.

 

[roger1440]

Do the clouds obscuring the light of the sun disprove the existence of the sun? How do we account for the light? Faith is a precious gift. Perhaps it can be taken away in the twinkling of an eye....punishment for too much time on RF no doubt!

So what did Josephus say about Jesus and why do you question the authenticity of what is said?

The main reason I mentioned Caiaphus is that like the disciple Judas, he distinguished himself for all the wrong reasons. He was a man with a name to be wise but inwardly foolish. His learning and worldliness caused him to err when it counted the most. He knew the claims of the man He condemned to death. He simply chose to ignore them or reject them.

Perhaps like the sun behind the clouds it doesn't really exist. However we do know that sun of the Christian relevation rose and that of the Jews set not long after. Now the sun of the Christian revelation is fading fast. From where does the light of Divine Guidance shine now?

It would have been foolish for Caiaphus to accept the claims of Jesus without any evidence. There is a pretty good chance Caiaphus wouldn’t have been the high priest if he accepted the claims of each and every nut case that came into town. He did not ignore the claims of Jesus, far from it. He acted swiftly to have Jesus tried, convicted and executed.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It would have been foolish for Caiaphus to accept the claims of Jesus without any evidence. There is a pretty good chance Caiaphus wouldn’t have been the high priest if he accepted the claims of each and every nut case that came into town. He did not ignore the claims of Jesus, far from it. He acted swiftly to have Jesus tried, convicted and executed.

So the Jews were right to ignore and kill their prophets as recorded in the Old Testament? What did Yahweh know anyhow.

Perhaps the disciples were fools too. Did they have anymore evidence than Caiaphas?

 

[roger1440]

So the Jews were right to ignore and kill their prophets as recorded in the Old Testament? What did Yahweh know anyhow.

Perhaps the disciples were fools too. Did they have anymore evidence than Caiaphas?

I prefer to stay on topic rather than go in many different directions at one time. Without the execution of Jesus there would be no Christianity. Simply claiming to be the Messiah wouldn’t warrant an illegal trial of Jesus in the middle of the night. The Jewish authorities wanted Jesus dead as quickly as possible. This raises two questions. Why did they want him dead and why did they want him dead as quickly as possible. The most appropriate way to approach these questions is for the reader to place himself in Jerusalem during Passover week during that time.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I prefer to stay on topic rather than go in many different directions at one time

I feel a sense of deja vu here!

Without the execution of Jesus there would be no Christianity.

Not every Messiah needs to be martyred. With Christianity it was all part of a Divine Plan which Jesus was fully aware of and had agreed to sacrifice His Life.

Simply claiming to be the Messiah wouldn’t warrant an illegal trial of Jesus in the middle of the night

Maybe it would. There had been an earlier attempt to stone Jesus to death for claiming to be God. Clearly His time had not come.

The Jewish authorities wanted Jesus dead as quickly as possible.

Agreed

Why did they want him dead and why did they want him dead as quickly as possible.

The Gospels give a compelling and clear sense of what was going. I agree that Josephus helps elucidate the historic context.

The most appropriate way to approach these questions is for the reader to place himself in Jerusalem during Passover week during that time.

The reality is that Christianity is an ancient religion whose history is shrouded in mystery that the best historians have limited insight into. As humanity toils and suffers our work is to recognise the Spirit of Truth for this Day lest we make the same mistake as those who ignored the Messiah or worse harmed His Cause.

 

[pearl]

Why did they want him dead and why did they want him dead as quickly as possible. The most appropriate way to approach these questions is for the reader to place himself in Jerusalem during Passover week during that time.

Ancient societies did not make modern distinctions between religion, politics, or economics. "Religion" was imbedded with politics and economics in the concrete social forms of family and local community authority structures. The Temple was the spiritual center of Judaism and a military fortress and the economic lifeblood of Jerusalem. Similarly, Jesus' proclamation of the coming Kingdom of God was not simply a religious or spiritual message. It also had political consequences since the arrival of God's Kingdom would mean the replacement of earthly realms, including the Roman Empire.
The Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate, effectively appointed Caiaphas as high priest. Pilate could remove an uncooperative priest by refusing to give him the sacred vestments worn to enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. Since Caiaphas remained high priest during Pilate's entire tenure as prefect, it seems clear that they had a good working relationship.

Of historical importance in reconstructing the circumstances of Jesus' death is the fact that Passover in Jerusalem could be a volatile time. Thousands of Jewish pilgrims streamed to Jerusalem from all over the Mediterranean world to celebrate the festival of freedom from foreign domination, but upon arriving they would see many signs of Roman supremacy. The first-century writer Flavius Josephus tells of the regular Roman practice of stationing troops to maintain public order in the Temple precincts (Jewish Wars, 2.12.1). The inflamed mood of the Jewish populace at Passover probably explains why Pilate was in Jerusalem, instead of at his headquarters in Caesarea Maritima, when Jesus entered the city. If Jesus caused a disturbance in the Temple after his arrival, this would certainly alarm both Jewish and Roman authorities: a Galilean troublemaker might be planning to start a Passover riot. Pilate would want to keep the peace. So would Caiaphas, who could reasonably fear that violence could lead to the destruction of the Temple, as indeed eventually occurred (see John 11:48-50).
reference; The Arrest and Sentencing of Jesus
A Historical Reconstruction, The Arrest and Sentencing of Jesus
Philip A. Cunningham

 

[roger1440]

Ancient societies did not make modern distinctions between religion, politics, or economics. "Religion" was imbedded with politics and economics in the concrete social forms of family and local community authority structures. The Temple was the spiritual center of Judaism and a military fortress and the economic lifeblood of Jerusalem. Similarly, Jesus' proclamation of the coming Kingdom of God was not simply a religious or spiritual message. It also had political consequences since the arrival of God's Kingdom would mean the replacement of earthly realms, including the Roman Empire.
The Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate, effectively appointed Caiaphas as high priest. Pilate could remove an uncooperative priest by refusing to give him the sacred vestments worn to enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. Since Caiaphas remained high priest during Pilate's entire tenure as prefect, it seems clear that they had a good working relationship.

Of historical importance in reconstructing the circumstances of Jesus' death is the fact that Passover in Jerusalem could be a volatile time. Thousands of Jewish pilgrims streamed to Jerusalem from all over the Mediterranean world to celebrate the festival of freedom from foreign domination, but upon arriving they would see many signs of Roman supremacy. The first-century writer Flavius Josephus tells of the regular Roman practice of stationing troops to maintain public order in the Temple precincts (Jewish Wars, 2.12.1). The inflamed mood of the Jewish populace at Passover probably explains why Pilate was in Jerusalem, instead of at his headquarters in Caesarea Maritima, when Jesus entered the city. If Jesus caused a disturbance in the Temple after his arrival, this would certainly alarm both Jewish and Roman authorities: a Galilean troublemaker might be planning to start a Passover riot. Pilate would want to keep the peace. So would Caiaphas, who could reasonably fear that violence could lead to the destruction of the Temple, as indeed eventually occurred (see John 11:48-50).
reference; The Arrest and Sentencing of Jesus
A Historical Reconstruction, The Arrest and Sentencing of Jesus
Philip A. Cunningham

Is any of what you posted your words?

 

[pearl]

Is any of what you posted your words?

I stated the source I referenced. I have been a catechist for many years.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I stated the source I referenced. I have been a catechist for many years.

Hello again. I'm Adrian by the way.

The except provided is insightful, well written, and clear no doubt reflecting many years studying the gospels and history.

A key aspect of this thread is to what extent Jesus fulfils the Jewish prophecies and how He doesn't. Another way of looking at it may be differentiating between The Christ and His Second Coming. Its potentially a huge topic but it would be excellent if you were able to provide some concise and brief thoughts on this.

I'd like to hear from you too Roger.

 

[roger1440]

I think the Roman occupation of Israel gave momentum to the imminent arrival of the Messiah during the first century. In other words the very presence of the Romans is responsible for the Gospels, plus the destruction of the Temple.

 

[pearl]

Hello again. I'm Adrian by the way.

The except provided is insightful, well written, and clear no doubt reflecting many years studying the gospels and history.

A key aspect of this thread is to what extent Jesus fulfils the Jewish prophecies and how He doesn't. Another way of looking at it may be differentiating between The Christ and His Second Coming. Its potentially a huge topic but it would be excellent if you were able to provide some concise and brief thoughts on this.

I'd like to hear from you too Roger.

I have found the better insight into the life of Jesus the Jew, is provided by Jewish scholars. Pinchas Lapide is an excellent source, with his rabbinic interpretation of the NT. There are others; Schalom Ben-Chorin, Martin Bruber who wrote,
"He (Jesus) is not satisfied with Sinai. He wants to penetrate the cloud above the mountain, from where the voice resounds. He wants to penetrate God’s original intention, in order to fulfill the Torah, i.e. to fulfill the requirements of the highest court and to completely achieve all its goals. In this heavenly striving, ardent desire for perfection, Jesus calls for more than a fulfillment of the commandments and the prohibitions, thereby subscribing to the tenth commandment, which goes further than all the others inasmuch as it, for the first time, contains a warning against incorrect convictions, before they are able to grow into crimes: you shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his servant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbour’s."


Jacob Neusner's book; 'A Rabbi Talks With Jesus', in which Neusner allows the reader to 'listen in as he talks with Matthew's Jesus giving the Sermon on the Mount. He sums up as to why 'eternal Israel' can not abandon the Torah to follow Jesus. There is a blurb from Pope Benedict XVI, "By far the most important book for the Jewish-Christian dialogue in the last decade. The absolute honesty, the precision of analysis, the union of respect for the other party with carefully grounded loyalty to one's own position characterize the book and make it a challenge especially to Christians, who will have to ponder the analysis of the contrast between Moses and Jesus.

One of my favorite authors is Rabbi Abraham Heschel who writes about the 'divine pathos' of the prophets. His books go beyond the academic, he writes from the heart and defends the anthropomorphism of Hebrew Scripture. His book, 'God In Search of Man' is a valuable insight into the philosophy of Judaism.

Forgive the rambling, but I find the last fifty years of Jewish/Christian dialogue no less than exciting. The person of Jesus both unites and divides us.

 

[pearl]

Another way of looking at it may be differentiating between The Christ and His Second Coming.

It is my understanding that the Jews did/do not believe the Messiah to be a 'divine man'. Lapide believes the resurrection of Jesus was historical, but has no such belief that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jewish messiah would be accompanied by a return of Israel to the high point of the time of David. One could speculate that both Jews and Christians await the Messiah, for Christians, the one already known, for Jews the One to come. It is through Christ that we are forever linked to the Jews as it is through Jesus that the God of Israel is known to the nations. Christ for the Christian, is Sinai present here and now, the living Torah. As quoted from 'Many Religions One Covenant', "It is not within our power to overcome this separation, but it keeps both of us to the path that leads to the One who comes."

It certainly seems imperative that we come to a better understanding of one another. Ben-Chorin puts it well. As quoted by Kung, "When at the passah meal I lift the cup and break the unleavened bread, I am doing what he (Jesus) did and I know I am much closer to him than many Christians who celebrate the Eucharist in complete separation from its Jewish origins."

 

[roger1440]

Apparently Jesus didn’t read Dale Carnegie’s bestselling book “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have found the better insight into the life of Jesus the Jew, is provided by Jewish scholars. Pinchas Lapide is an excellent source, with his rabbinic interpretation of the NT. There are others; Schalom Ben-Chorin, Martin Bruber who wrote,
"He (Jesus) is not satisfied with Sinai. He wants to penetrate the cloud above the mountain, from where the voice resounds. He wants to penetrate God’s original intention, in order to fulfill the Torah, i.e. to fulfill the requirements of the highest court and to completely achieve all its goals. In this heavenly striving, ardent desire for perfection, Jesus calls for more than a fulfillment of the commandments and the prohibitions, thereby subscribing to the tenth commandment, which goes further than all the others inasmuch as it, for the first time, contains a warning against incorrect convictions, before they are able to grow into crimes: you shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his servant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbour’s."


Jacob Neusner's book; 'A Rabbi Talks With Jesus', in which Neusner allows the reader to 'listen in as he talks with Matthew's Jesus giving the Sermon on the Mount. He sums up as to why 'eternal Israel' can not abandon the Torah to follow Jesus. There is a blurb from Pope Benedict XVI, "By far the most important book for the Jewish-Christian dialogue in the last decade. The absolute honesty, the precision of analysis, the union of respect for the other party with carefully grounded loyalty to one's own position characterize the book and make it a challenge especially to Christians, who will have to ponder the analysis of the contrast between Moses and Jesus.

One of my favorite authors is Rabbi Abraham Heschel who writes about the 'divine pathos' of the prophets. His books go beyond the academic, he writes from the heart and defends the anthropomorphism of Hebrew Scripture. His book, 'God In Search of Man' is a valuable insight into the philosophy of Judaism.

Forgive the rambling, but I find the last fifty years of Jewish/Christian dialogue no less than exciting. The person of Jesus both unites and divides us.

Spoken as a true lover intoxicated by the beauty and mystery of the Divine. Thank you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Apparently Jesus didn’t read Dale Carnegie’s bestselling book “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.

I don't think He would have found the time to read it Have a festive Xmas

 

[Dawnofhope]

It is my understanding that the Jews did/do not believe the Messiah to be a 'divine man'. Lapide believes the resurrection of Jesus was historical, but has no such belief that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jewish messiah would be accompanied by a return of Israel to the high point of the time of David. One could speculate that both Jews and Christians await the Messiah, for Christians, the one already known, for Jews the One to come. It is through Christ that we are forever linked to the Jews as it is through Jesus that the God of Israel is known to the nations. Christ for the Christian, is Sinai present here and now, the living Torah. As quoted from 'Many Religions One Covenant', "It is not within our power to overcome this separation, but it keeps both of us to the path that leads to the One who comes."

It certainly seems imperative that we come to a better understanding of one another. Ben-Chorin puts it well. As quoted by Kung, "When at the passah meal I lift the cup and break the unleavened bread, I am doing what he (Jesus) did and I know I am much closer to him than many Christians who celebrate the Eucharist in complete separation from its Jewish origins."

I do appreciate the efforts of the Catholic Church to mend broken bridges and engage with other Christians and other faiths. In regards to the Jewish Messiah I was in agreement with a member of the Judaic Faith, Flankerl who earlier posted in this thread. The argument was simply that the Christian dispensation has not been one of peace so Jesus can not be the Messiah. That vision of peace is well portrayed at times by the prophet Isaiah. However Jesus clearly fulfils prophecy in other ways so there is a distinction to be made between Christ and His Return. All the best for a festive Xmas.

 

[pearl]

I do appreciate the efforts of the Catholic Church to mend broken bridges and engage with other Christians and other faiths. In regards to the Jewish Messiah I was in agreement with a member of the Judaic Faith, Flankerl who earlier posted in this thread. The argument was simply that the Christian dispensation has not been one of peace so Jesus can not be the Messiah. That vision of peace is well portrayed at times by the prophet Isaiah. However Jesus clearly fulfils prophecy in other ways so there is a distinction to be made between Christ and His Return. All the best for a festive Xmas.

Its ironic that these efforts have caused such division within the Church. It is rare that an ultra conservative Catholic would agree with the Church's teaching that the Jews are saved, their covenant with God still in effect, based in part on the covenant with Abraham which is absolute, irrevocable, eternal. Justice Scalia, being the Catholic conservative he was, opposed the Church's position on the death penalty. As for fulfillment, Jesus did bring the God of the Jews to the nations. But if one considers man's inhumanity to man, nothing seems to have changed.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's not proxy when it's the direct word of God that is living and active, sharper than any sword.

I didn't realize you had the original texts God Himself wrote instead of books written, edited, and published over and over by human beings.

I think a better question would be: If the Messiah has already come, why hasn't he fulfilled any of the messianic prophecies?

And why would a Messiah supposedly going to rule the world for a thousand years only really show up in one spot in the Middle East? Is his passport not accepted in other regions?

The Bible says he will not return until the signs of the 7 seals have been fulfilled. Well the prophesies haven't been full filled. There have been no plagues, or natural disasters wiping out large parts of humanity.

To be fair, the biblical author probably underestimated the breeding capacity of humans in the modern era. A few hundred thousand deaths probably seemed like a lot to him....

Thus in John it says, the Sanhedrin put him to death 'for the nation',

The Sanhedrin had no legal authority to do any such thing. ROMANS killed him, not Jews.

Caiaphas clearly failed to recognise Jesus as the Promised One whereas Peter an unlearned fisherman rose to exalted heights spiritually and positively influenced the course of history.

Peter was more adept at putting his lips on Jesus' butt.

By making them follow darkness as light, and light as dark... To see who is really a demon, by what they accept as morally right, when it is blatantly wrong.

But such moral weirdness has existed since day one, so to speak. What else is new?

I can't see Christianity or even the Gospel of Christ meeting that need. Can you?

Me neither. I see Jesus (nowadays, anyway) is the "milk" and just simply can't be the "meat". I don't put all the blame on Jesus for this, as he died rather quickly, so he didn't have time to develop a thorough theology. Still, Jesus is like the Cliff Notes version of morality.

You're right the authors did...Yet I'm someone who goes on what a man has to say; not what others have to say about him.

All that really shows, though, is that the authors are too incompetent as writers to have consistent themes.

How do we account for the light?

Fly above the clouds and see the sun is still there.

Or John the Bapist was the return of the spirit of Elijah, rather than a physical incarnation of Elijah. Then there is no contradiction.

The disciples should've asked Elijah when he and Moses visited with Jesus, right?

I haven't come across Christians that reject much of the New testament before. How many of you are there?

I'm not a big fan of Paul and John either. I find them to be, as well as Peter, self-serving a$$holes who took "the Way", which was supposed to focus us on making the world a better place through compassion and work, and turned it into a "do whatever it takes to get the gold star by your name" kind of thing. I'm more of a Mark (yes, I know he was supposedly Peter's secretary or something) and James fan, myself. I find their "fruit" to be more palatable than focusing on shallow "bumper sticker" theology.

However we do know that sun of the Christian relevation rose and that of the Jews set not long after.

Jews still exist. Dunno if you missed that part.

From where does the light of Divine Guidance shine now?

I think the Dharmic religions are technically more "grown-up" than the Abrahamic ones. That's just me, though.

So the Jews were right to ignore and kill their prophets as recorded in the Old Testament?

How many were killed? The NT acts like it was nearly all of them, but I can't think of any who were killed in such a fashion.

Perhaps the disciples were fools too.

Jesus complained about their lack of understanding, actually.

With Christianity it was all part of a Divine Plan which Jesus was fully aware of and had agreed to sacrifice His Life.

Actually, how well he took his impending (and quite predictable, given how he had been acting) death depends on the author.

Clearly His time had not come.

Clearly the stoners had bad aim.

The Gospels give a compelling and clear sense of what was going.

The gospels also love to talk trash about people, perhaps undeservedly. We are NEVER meant to "walk a mile in the others' shoes". This is a big flaw in the OT as well. There are plenty of valid reasons "villains" acted the way they supposedly did, from various city-states being angry that some Hebrews are torturing, killing, and raping their people and burning their cities to the ground to Jews being acutely aware Rome doesn't need much motivation to destroy entire civilizations (especially one they thought was some hellhole backwater they were forced to guard because Caesar would have them executed if they didn't).