If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[Alceste]

Why imagine something that will never happen? Why imagine there is no sin and then say why do I need a savior? I would rather imagine everyone sees their need for a savior. That's it, I'll imaging that everyone sees their need for a savior, then ask "why don't everyone get saved if they see their need for a savior" and stump the atheist.

I know loads of people who don't see any need for a savior. Besides myself, and all my family and friends, I've also met many Buddhists, pagans, wiccans, hindus, atheists, agnostics, mainstream / liberal protestants, freethinkers, Muslims... Seems only people from your strange sect think everybody is a sinner who needs to be saved.

Any chance those who do not enjoy indulging in ritual self-loathing might be right and you might be wrong?

 

[blackout]

If I'm not a Savior, do I need a Sinner?

 

[That Dude]

Any chance those who do not enjoy indulging in ritual self-loathing might be right and you might be wrong?

Your perspective of Christianity seems based on a stereotype.
Wouldn't by chance be influenced by all the non-savior needing friends and family?

When I talked to you before, you made the following comment, "You know whats right and wrong? Then act on it." (Or something to that effect)
Well, would you intentionally look for a way to talk your buddhist or wiccan friends out of their religion? or maybe talk down to them in a way that may seem insulting?

What is the difference between a Christian finding understanding and a wiccan finding understanding? According to, what would appear to be your philosophical views, both would find solace in something that doesn't exist.

Wiccans follow a religion that came from this guy.

A self proclaimed loon who pieced together most of the information on wicca, from books he found in a broken down library, he bought and turned into a home.
Which in all honesty is probably pretty insulting to point out to a wiccan, but from your post, I've never seen you have any problems telling Christians exactly what you think of their religion.

For a lot of Christians it's not about finding redemption for their sins. It's simply about understanding that Jesus exist and he paid a high price to let us know he loves us.
Bottom line, Christianity is about love and understanding.
If a Christian trys to point out that it is in fact about love and not necessarily about being a sinner then people question it because they have doubts about Christian motives. Particularly on the internet. (of course you have to be a sinner in order to get saved, but that's not the only reason people become Christian)
But if a muslim says, their religion is about love and understanding, they're not questioned. When we all know full well that there are some muslims who are not even close to demonstrating their intentions as loveable.
So the reason you may have needed to make another thread, might be in your prescribed notions of Christianity and not necessarily in the answers you're getting.
Some people just hate being called a sinner. Especially when they see themselves "as the one normally doing the saving". Can't save someone who already has a savior, unless you take that savior away.

 

[Kathryn]

If sin is just "living our conscience" and doing what we believe to be right, what happens when someone's conscience doesn't line up with someone else's? Some people can and do act with apparently no conscience - they don't seem to have a mechanism which produces empathy or feelings of guilt or even doubt when they act in ways which hurt others. Are they sinning?

 

[sojourner]

In my opinion needing a saviour is a sign of insecurity, its akin to wanting a big brother(not in the NWO sense!)to keep you safe! I appreciate that a lot of us are on a lifelong search for some kind of meaning as to why we are here, and religion offers hope to those who I believe are lazy! Whether it be christianity or buddhism or whatever other religion you follow, you are in a subtle way being lazy! You are following a path which has been well established(this is true for the orthodox religions of the world)and your thinking has been done for you! So as long as you follow the rules you'll be fine! I think its a shame that we seem to enjoy burying ourselves in cocoons of self abuse(sin)and gleefully play the part of a perpetual loser who needs a saviour. From my own christian experience I base these thoughts on! I prefer the path of self enquiry, and finding out who I am by periods of inward looking and meditation. I have a "knowing" that we came from a Source which is far beyond our comprehension, and one day we will return to that Source. Some people call that Source g_d, but I cannot because I associate g_d as being manufactured by Man. Religion has dirtied the waters of spirituality and built houses which have their foundations on sin and guilt, and you must worship this Man made g_d! Which to me makes no sense at all! The Source who created All Life doesn't need to be worshipped, no, that domain is 100% Man made! That is of the Ego! No one needs a saviour! Sin is for those who wish to be downtrodden! But if it makes you "happy" to have a saviour, then great! Its just not for me and countless others who have seen the Light! We are here to experience what Life has to offer and to help our fellow human being, along the way we will make mistakes, but hey, thats how we learn!

Namaste,

Lenny

bangers and mash.....luverly:clap

First of all, Chrtistians don't "need" a savior. We have been reconciled. We don't play the perpetual loser. There are no winners or losers, because it's neither a contest nor a race. It's a family, and we act the part of family members. Second, religion (at least Xy) rightly offers us a vehicle for searching, questioning, and self-examination. It doesn't provide "easy answers." Orthodox Xy does not turn its adherents into mindless drones. (Some sects do and that's regrettable, but it certainly ain't true of "mainstream" Xy).

Third, we don't worship a "Man made God." We worship God-With-Us -- or God made human.

Fourth, it sounds as if you follow a religion that's pretty close to orthodox Xy, and several other major world religions, despite what you call yourself.

God doesn't need to be worshiped, but we need to worship God. (Do you even understand the nature of worship?)

I regret that your Xian experience was a bad one. But don't chuck the whole thing for one bad apple.

 

[sojourner]

I know loads of people who don't see any need for a savior. Besides myself, and all my family and friends, I've also met many Buddhists, pagans, wiccans, hindus, atheists, agnostics, mainstream / liberal protestants, freethinkers, Muslims... Seems only people from your strange sect think everybody is a sinner who needs to be saved.

Any chance those who do not enjoy indulging in ritual self-loathing might be right and you might be wrong?

Hmmm... Don't what you're on about, but neither I, nor most of the folks I know, have ever indulged in "ritual self-loathing." I don't think everyone is a sinner who needs to be saved. I think we've all been reconciled.

 

[tarasan]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

hypotnetically if someone did not sin then no you do not need a saviour, because you would have done nothing wrong to need redemption.

 

[waitasec]

If sin is just "living our conscience" and doing what we believe to be right, what happens when someone's conscience doesn't line up with someone else's? Some people can and do act with apparently no conscience - they don't seem to have a mechanism which produces empathy or feelings of guilt or even doubt when they act in ways which hurt others. Are they sinning?

those people are called sociopaths

"sin" is a justification for retribution. karma.
imo, as soon as control enters the picture, meaning one persons desire to control another, then everything becomes skewed and unbalanced.

when we do what we believe is right while being conscience that everyone has their own truths to follow, we have balance.

 

[waitasec]

hypotnetically if someone did not sin then no you do not need a saviour, because you would have done nothing wrong to need redemption.

this can only be hypothetical?

 

[tarasan]

this can only be hypothetical?

the first question stated that if i didnt believe it was true, then it could be a hypothetical situation.

i dont believe that it is true so, i said hypothetically.

you got an issue son?

 

[waitasec]

the first question stated that if i didnt believe it was true, then it could be a hypothetical situation.

i dont believe that it is true so, i said hypothetically.

you got an issue son?

not at all cupcake...

that would make sense since the christian doctrine has all of mankind born of sin...which makes it impossible to be sinless, that would make christ's sacrifice useless wouldn't it?
what would constitute a sin against god, in your opinion?

 

[YmirGF]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Forgive me, Alceste, but I am a bit stumped about a savior who is worthy of your patronage. Sorry, I'm drawing a blank. Guess you'll have to go it alone and carry your own cross.

 

[Katzpur]

not at all cupcake...

that would make sense since the christian doctrine has all of mankind born of sin...which makes it impossible to be sinless...

That may be doctrine to some Christians, but it sure isn't doctrine to all Christians.

...that would make christ's sacrifice useless wouldn't it?

Even if I believed in Original Sin, this statement wouldn't make sense. If we were all born in sin, wouldn't that make Christ's sacrifice even more necessary?

 

[waitasec]

That may be doctrine to some Christians, but it sure isn't doctrine to all Christians.

Even if I believed in Original Sin, this statement wouldn't make sense. If we were all born in sin, wouldn't that make Christ's sacrifice even more necessary?

meaning if it's possible to be sinless, jesus sacrifice would have been worthless....my wording was poor

 

[tarasan]

not at all cupcake...

that would make sense since the christian doctrine has all of mankind born of sin...which makes it impossible to be sinless?
, that would make christ's sacrifice useless wouldn't it?

orignial sin is not a neccessity of the bible, and i personally dont believe it, but even if we assume that it is neccessary it wouldnt consistute Christs Sacrifice as useless, but i you havnt shown me your reasoning so im not sure how I should continue.. .

what would constitute a sin against god, in your opinion?

every sin is a sin against God, because Sin of any kind is rebellion against him

 

[McBell]

meaning if it's possible to be sinless, jesus sacrifice would have been worthless....my wording was poor

Unless of course there are people who do in fact sin....
Just saying.

 

[Katzpur]

meaning if it's possible to be sinless, jesus sacrifice would have been worthless....my wording was poor

I think that even that is debatable, but I'm looking at it from an entirely different perspective than you are. I believe that Jesus' sacrifice accomplished two things: (1) it conquered death, which would otherwise have been the end of our existance, and (2) it freed us from the consequences of sin. If someone had never sinned (which I believe is the case when a child dies prior to the age when he is able to understand what sin it), he would not need a Savior to free him from the consequences of his sins. But because Jesus Christ resurrected three days after His own death, we all have the promise that this will be the case with us, too. Even a sinless person person would not have the power to take up his own life again.

 

[waitasec]

I think that even that is debatable, but I'm looking at it from an entirely different perspective than you are. I believe that Jesus' sacrifice accomplished two things: (1) it conquered death, which would otherwise have been the end of our existance,

i don't get that...people still die.


(2) it freed us from the consequences of sin. If someone had never sinned (which I believe is the case when a child dies prior to the age when he is able to understand what sin it), he would not need a Savior to free him from the consequences of his sins. But because Jesus Christ resurrected three days after His own death, we all have the promise that this will be the case with us, too. [/quote]

i don't get that either...
the consequence of sin is death..
people still die.

Even a sinless person person would not have the power to take up his own life again.

but that's what i meant when i said, if someone was sinless christ's death would have been useless... because no one can take the ownership of sin away...
the consequences are still in effect. if i sinned against you, now you have to deal with the BS ...how can god forgive that? it has nothing to do with god because this is between me and you....

 

[waitasec]

every sin is a sin against God, because Sin of any kind is rebellion against him

if i sinned against you, how can god be in a position to forgive me...?
this is between me and you...the ball is now in play no matter if god forgave me or not...

 

[sojourner]

if i sinned against you, how can god be in a position to forgive me...?
this is between me and you...the ball is now in play no matter if god forgave me or not...

The heart of sinfulness is rampant individualism. Everything is connected. If I am in God, you are in God, so if I sin against you, God's already involved. Sin isn't particularly individual. We have to think more systemic than that. Jesus isn't a personal savior. Jesus is the reconciler of humanity.