If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[Gloone]

That post was longer then, "love your neighbor". haha

An explanation was needed, otherwise I wouldn't know what you were talking about, why it was important or how to pass the sentiment along.
If it's really that easy then maybe you could spend the day telling everyone you run into to, "love your neighbor". And let them sort it out.

Na you would just have to be yourself.

 

[Gloone]

lol I'm a hypocrite because I don't understand you?
I admit, that I believe you need the bible to understand Christianity and to get closer to God. But how does that translate to being hypocritical?

I didn't mean to sound rude, I just want to understand your philosophy.
You're not giving to much information on the subject.
With me it's easy, because I say, what I believe is in the bible.
With you, it's not so easy because the only point of reference I have is you and all you're saying is, you believe in the trinity.
Which means, I'm guessing at everything else. I'm even guessing at what everything else is.
See what I mean? You're not to informative. I have no recourse but to be confused.

Alright trinity aside. What do you think the message of the bible states when relating it to the topic, being the original post made by Alceste.

 

[McBell]

No... Jesus didn't need a savior... he was the only sinless human and so became the Savior.

You really need to tell that to the churches in my area.
They are claiming that Jesus is god.
Or a third of god...
never did get the straight of that.

All humans are sinners and have missed the mark of the ideal person they want to ...

Says who?
You?

You already know the example of Job who Satan accuses with a question, "Does Job serve God for nothing?"

Nope.
Job served in fear of punishment and hope for reward.

Do you ask this question for nothing? Why waste valuable time asking a question of Christians that no answer will suffice? Is it because you know you are a sinner in need of a savior or is it because you think of yourself as a sinless human?

Sometimes the answer to the question is the question itself.

And sometimes, though it is extremely rare, a Christian can answer a question without preaching...

 

[Gloone]

Nope.
Job served in fear of punishment and hope for reward.

That is also when God ordered Satan to burn down Jobs house unless I was reading another bible that had a different translation.

 

[That Dude]

Alright trinity aside. What do you think the message of the bible states when relating it to the topic, being the original post made by Alceste.

I described it on another post you quoted from.

But the bible does describe how I personally feel even if it wasn't the only source of information on the 'religious' Christianity.

17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you
John 14:17 (NIV)

The 'Spirit of Truth' is more commonly known as the 'Holy Spirit' and it is used to show you the reality of God.
I didn't have a true understanding of Christianity until I felt it.
It's a handshake from God in a sense. What is often mistaken as a euphoric state is actually an emotional state, bestowed upon anyone who accepts God.

You literally have no idea how insignificant mankind is until you've felt it.
And quite often don't want to admit how small and meaningless mankind is compared to the splendid nature of the universe, which God created.

Then add to that what Alceste said about love your neighbor and you got one heck of a kind and gentle God.
Personally, I want every advantage I can get that gets me closer to a God like that.
Sin has nothing to do with wanting to return the love of a loving creator.
Not that we all arent sinners. I believe we all are.
But I don't hold to the belief that being a sinner is the only reason you should love God. And I think if you read the bible, you'll be surprised to see that bit of information in there.

 

[Alceste]

That post was longer then, "love your neighbor". haha

An explanation was needed, otherwise I wouldn't know what you were talking about, why it was important or how to pass the sentiment along.
If it's really that easy then maybe you could spend the day telling everyone you run into to, "love your neighbor". And let them sort it out.

My faith is practice, not preaching.

 

[Alceste]

No... Jesus didn't need a savior... he was the only sinless human and so became the Savior.

All humans are sinners and have missed the mark of the ideal person they want to or could be so you pose the question that no answer will suffice. You already know the example of Job who Satan accuses with a question, "Does Job serve God for nothing?"

Do you ask this question for nothing? Why waste valuable time asking a question of Christians that no answer will suffice? Is it because you know you are a sinner in need of a savior or is it because you think of yourself as a sinless human?

Sometimes the answer to the question is the question itself.

No, not for nothing. To hear what different Christians had to say on the subject. Not everybody agrees with you apparently. In fact, even your own holy book does not agree with you.

I am discovering the notion that everybody is a sinner is unique to a certain type of Christianity - a sect which also seems to me to worship a book most of its adherents have never even read as "god". That is interesting, to me, as a sociological phenomenon.

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

Well you need to work hard to save yourself from sins.Every thing in this world is not according to what you want. but if you become responsible for your life then every thing will be perfect.and this world is like a paradise.

 

[Zardoz]

Only our own self can save us and no one else..that's what I think so. Coz if one wants to be saved, then he must be true in thought and action while he is still alive..

First off, Welcome to RF!
That pretty much is the same as I said, so :yes:

Welcome to RF as well, Manahel.Fatima! also very good points.

Feel free to make a intro post over in the welcome forum, and... welcome!

 

[Alceste]

Well you need to work hard to save yourself from sins.Every thing in this world is not according to what you want. but if you become responsible for your life then every thing will be perfect.and this world is like a paradise.

I agree - building an ethical framework and sticking to it is hard work. But not impossible.

 

[notthedalaidrama]

Only our own self can save us and no one else..that's what I think so. Coz if one wants to be saved, then he must be true in thought and action while he is still alive..

spot on!

can having a saviour put pressure on the "saved" individual? making the "saved" person feel guilty when he/she makes mistakes. so having a saviour, can it also have a negative effect on the "saved" person?

I agree with charlottelacar, that the responsibility lies with the your Self. I make a mistake and I pay for it in some way, and vice versa. The Self has to become the saviour, of course the Self is hidden away under the years of conditioning we have endured; so finding the Self is in its own way being saved. The Self is your saviour.

Namaste,

Lenny

walking on ice cream

 

[andys]

Well you need to work hard to save yourself from sins.

A sin is simply disobeying the god in the Bible. It has nothing to do with what a moral code of right and wrong (as I explained in post #102 and #104). Correct?

A sin, I pointed out, can be in conflict to what is morally right (e.g., disobeying god when he commands you to kill your son is a sin, but is also morally right). A sin can also be something that is irrelevant to morality (e.g., keeping the Sabbath holy).

Therefore, why would anyone "work hard to be saved" from something that is isn't based on a true moral code of right or wrong?

...if you become responsible for your life then every thing will be perfect and this world is like a paradise.

There is no reward for doing what is right - and there ought not to be. Do you really not understand that? Why would you deserve gold stars on your report card for doing what is right? Doing what is right is expected of you - it's your duty. I'll tell you what you do deserve: you deserve punishment if you do something wrong. That is called justice.

Here's how justice works: When you commit an act that is morally wrong, you gain an unfair advantage that you are not entitled to (over the rest of society who is playing by the rules). In order to re-balance the scales of justice, the undeserved advantage you enjoyed must be offset, in proportion, by suffering a deserved disadvantage - punishment. Then the equilibrium of the scales of justice are restored.

But to god-believers there is no justice, no right, no wrong. All you have is "sin" - the fear of stirring the wrath of a "jealous god" (jealous of what?) who must be appeased in order for you to be "saved" from his wrath. You're so afraid of your own shadow that whatever your tyrant commands of you, you bleat like sheep "Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full."

Well he may have super powers like the villains in a Superman comic, but deliberately drowning every person on Earth (according to your Bible) is morally wrong; killing your son (Isaac) is morally wrong. And so on. At some point you have to have the courage of your conviction to Man, and not an extraterrestrial with a bag of tricks, and take responsibility for doing what is morally right, not what you think will please some murdering lunatic in the sky, and get yourself a slice of (undeserved) paradise.

 

[Civil Shephard]

No, not for nothing. To hear what different Christians had to say on the subject. Not everybody agrees with you apparently. In fact, even your own holy book does not agree with you.

I am discovering the notion that everybody is a sinner is unique to a certain type of Christianity - a sect which also seems to me to worship a book most of its adherents have never even read as "god". That is interesting, to me, as a sociological phenomenon.

Well... the bible isn't a Holy Book but a set of stories relating how man interacted with the God I AM of Abraham and Moses. There are stories of Holiness in the bible but there are also stories of what I AM will not control in those he chose to bring the message of I AM being. One instance that I believe is telling is when Joshua complained to Moses that two elders were continuing to prophesie when the elders meeting was over. Moses told Joshua not to stop them and said "I would that you were all prophets". Paul re-asserts this when in Corinthians updated to include a greater understanding than Moses gave to make love the primary motive of all obedience to God.

I do not worship the bible but I do believe the truth can be sought through reading and re-reading, applying and re-applying the teachings of Jesus whose concepts are the center piece of the collection of books the copy of the copy of the copy of which we have. However there is always a point of view to consider and even Moses who led a tactically proficient as well as miraculous Army really wanted the lead a nation of prophets who might have saved by prayer instead of a 'kill um all let God sort them out" mentality.

Yes... I have an opinion that does not jive with some Christians in my life... but the bible gets used by those who want to teach and preach and make a living out of what is believed to be service to a loving God. Well... folks make mistakes but in my experience those who honestly want the truth in their lives will not be decieved by what does not profit them in regards to the practice of Christian ministry. The little old lady who runs the soup kitchen friday nights on the corner of 5th and Main gets in trouble at her church a lot... but she's saved by Christ love in a way that bible thumpers can't understand and does kindness to the least of humans who've made bad choices and need a free cup of soup a smile and a prayer.

However, the belief that all humans are sinners is not something I needed the bible to tell me... I know it by talking to many people and hearing honesty within and without. There quite simply are no perfect people who haven't harmed themselve or others in ways that can be measured and called sin...

 

[jtartar]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Alceste,
It seems very unlikely that a person who has shown himself to be Terra Incognita, concerning the Holy Scriptures, could stump anyone.
I don't know what religion you belong to, but whether you know it or not, you are a practicing atheist.
Any person who wants to know the truth, searches the Holy Scriptures for answers, for it is only God's word that can be trusted completely, Prov 3:5,6, Ps 146:3,4.
The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms, that every man sins, even though there is a distinction between what the Bible calls a sinner and someone who sins.
Consider Ecc 7:20, which says that ever man sins.
1John has even more to say about someone who thinks he does not sin. Consider 1John 1:8-10, which tells us if we claim we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Even more pointed is verse 10, which says if we say we do not sin we are calling God a lier, and the truth is not in us.
It is probably a mistake to call The Almighty a lier!!!

As for the answer to your question about needing a savior or not.
When Adam sinned against God he became imperfect and started to die. The imperfection was transferred to all his offspring, the reason we are all dying. If you believe you will die, you need a redeemer, otherwise when you die you remain in the grave forever. If you trust in the Great Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus you have the opportunity to be resurrected and live forever on a paradise earth, Rom 5:12, Ps 51:5, Matt 20:28, John 3:16, Rom 5:6-11, John 5:28,29, Acts 13:38,39. It is only by the belief in the Ranson of Jesus that can save us, 1Tim 2:4-6, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:23,24.
Without belief in Jesus' Ransom and backing it up be actions, none will receive salvation, Rom 5:12, Heb 10:26-29.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste,
It seems very unlikely that a person who has shown himself to be Terra Incognita, concerning the Holy Scriptures, could stump anyone.
I don't know what religion you belong to, but whether you know it or not, you are a practicing atheist.
Any person who wants to know the truth, searches the Holy Scriptures for answers, for it is only God's word that can be trusted completely, Prov 3:5,6, Ps 146:3,4.
The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms, that every man sins, even though there is a distinction between what the Bible calls a sinner and someone who sins.
Consider Ecc 7:20, which says that ever man sins.
1John has even more to say about someone who thinks he does not sin. Consider 1John 1:8-10, which tells us if we claim we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Even more pointed is verse 10, which says if we say we do not sin we are calling God a lier, and the truth is not in us.
It is probably a mistake to call The Almighty a lier!!!

As for the answer to your question about needing a savior or not.
When Adam sinned against God he became imperfect and started to die. The imperfection was transferred to all his offspring, the reason we are all dying. If you believe you will die, you need a redeemer, otherwise when you die you remain in the grave forever. If you trust in the Great Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus you have the opportunity to be resurrected and live forever on a paradise earth, Rom 5:12, Ps 51:5, Matt 20:28, John 3:16, Rom 5:6-11, John 5:28,29, Acts 13:38,39. It is only by the belief in the Ranson of Jesus that can save us, 1Tim 2:4-6, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:23,24.
Without belief in Jesus' Ransom and backing it up be actions, none will receive salvation, Rom 5:12, Heb 10:26-29.

As I said, I have a Bible sitting right here. I know what it says. I want to hear what people THINK, not whether or not they can quote from a book.

FYI, I am not religious. I am at times a practicing taoist. At other times I am a practicing secular humanist. I am also a practicing musician and psychonaut. I am an atheist only because the dictionary says so - there is nothing to "practice" with a non-identity like non-theism.

 

[charlottelacar]

Actually you can if you understand the trinity, the holy spirit, son and father, etc. Then you know god and you don't need religion. Because you understand things for what they are instead of what they aren't. It almost comes natural to some people and there is no need for them to take up a religion. Religion becomes more like a step back than a step forward.

I agree with you. :yes: Religion don't matter at all. Thus, religion can't save anybody. What matters most is our strong belief in our god. :bow:

 

[sojourner]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

'K. Jesus was sinless. Jesus didn't need a savior.:beach:

 

[Man of Faith]

Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Why imagine something that will never happen? Why imagine there is no sin and then say why do I need a savior? I would rather imagine everyone sees their need for a savior. That's it, I'll imaging that everyone sees their need for a savior, then ask "why don't everyone get saved if they see their need for a savior" and stump the atheist.

 

[McBell]

Why imagine something that will never happen?

Seems you have bought the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Why imagine there is no sin and then say why do I need a savior?

Depends upon what you think sin is.
Sin is nothing more than going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.

I would rather imagine everyone sees their need for a savior.

And yet you ask why imagine something that never happened?
You are inconsistent.

That's it, I'll imaging that everyone sees their need for a savior, then ask "why don't everyone get saved if they see their need for a savior" and stump the atheist.

Not everyone is in need of a savior.
That is the part you seem to have problems understanding.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree with you. :yes: Religion don't matter at all. Thus, religion can't save anybody. What matters most is our strong belief in our god. :bow:

You just have to "believe" in God and that's it? Can this belief be in any god. Can you live any way you want and just "believe"? That doesn't sound all that logical to me, but maybe if you respond to some of the questions I've asked, it will make more sense.