If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[charlottelacar]

Only our own self can save us and no one else..that's what I think so. Coz if one wants to be saved, then he must be true in thought and action while he is still alive..

 

[Gloone]

Only our own self can save us and no one else..that's what I think so. Coz if one wants to be saved, then he must be true in thought and action while he is still alive..

I agree. There are some things that not even a savior is good for. I understand Jesus wanting to forgive people, but there is no reason for Jesus or other people to drag me or anyone else down the same road that other people decided to walk down. Seeing how I have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus death. I should not be held accountable for other peoples misfortunes and they should not blame me for theirs.

That would be the same answer I would give you Alceste. There is no reason for people to blame you for something that you can’t be held accountable for. Even if they did, then they are not being very modest. Unless you are really crazy, and you have another side to you that most people on RF don’t know about. :biglaugh:Which might lead to suspicion. :areyoucra Why are you asking this question in the OP again? Are you guilty of something we should know about?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

The fact that you asked the question means you are a sinner. But really, if you were not a sinner, then you would be God...and God doesn't need to save himself.

 

[That Dude]

That is only the definition of some Christians. Others have actually read the Bible and realize it can not even agree with itself, let alone move us to agree with it.

In actuality, it's the definition of all Christians.
Cant be a Christian with out the teachings of Christ and you cant have the teachings of Christ with out the bible.

Like I said, I am not interested in listening to people quote the Bible. I have a Bible. I can read it any time I like.

It's impossible to make any particular religion your own if it doesn't exist.
And taking examples that are extra canonical adds to the belief system, (effectively making it something else) which applys to any religion.
Logically, the best way to understand anything is to use an unaltered source.
Like the bible.
By denying it you're effectively learning about the individuals who call themselves Christians and not the religion itself.
If that's the point you should call it what it is.

If this emotional state you felt comes "from God", how do you explain the fact that a state of spiritual bliss and unity with the splendid universe is available to anyone, regardless of whether or not they believe in the Christian god - or any god at all?

I know how I explain it - the feeling of rapture / enlightenment / spiritual bliss is an inherent capability of the human psyche and can be explained through psychological research without recourse to supernatural causation.

I disagree. I understand beyond doubt that what I felt was the Holy Spirit.
But for your benefit I guess I should ask, how do you suggest we observe the inherent capability?
At least I have the benefit of experiencing what I've described.
From what I know, what you're suggesting is impossible.
Which also suggest you have nothing more then I do, which is hearsay.

 

[Gloone]

In actuality, it's the definition of all Christians.
Cant be a Christian with out the teachings of Christ and you cant have the teachings of Christ with out the bible.

Actually you can if you understand the trinity, the holy spirit, son and father, etc. Then you know god and you don't need religion. Because you understand things for what they are instead of what they aren't. It almost comes natural to some people and there is no need for them to take up a religion. Religion becomes more like a step back than a step forward.

 

[That Dude]

Actually you can if you understand the trinity, the holy spirit, son and father, etc. Then you know god and you don't need religion. Because you understand things for what they are instead of what they aren't. It almost comes natural to some people and there is no need for them to take up a religion. Religion becomes more like a step back than a step forward.

It seems as if you're saying, it's natural to not read the bible. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
The bible says, that there are things that seem natural to man, but it leads to death.

Religion is a concept conceived by man.
The only reason the bible has to be about religion is if people make it that way.
First and foremost, the bible is about having a closer relationship with God.
If all you know is that The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one, then you're missing a few hundred pages of information.

 

[Alceste]

I agree. There are some things that not even a savior is good for. I understand Jesus wanting to forgive people, but there is no reason for Jesus or other people to drag me or anyone else down the same road that other people decided to walk down. Seeing how I have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus death. I should not be held accountable for other peoples misfortunes and they should not blame me for theirs.

That would be the same answer I would give you Alceste. There is no reason for people to blame you for something that you can’t be held accountable for. Even if they did, then they are not being very modest. Unless you are really crazy, and you have another side to you that most people on RF don’t know about. :biglaugh:Which might lead to suspicion. :areyoucra Why are you asking this question in the OP again? Are you guilty of something we should know about?

Lol - no. I just do not understand why anyone goes to all the trouble of declaring that we are all sinners who need "saving" from the supernatural consequences imposed by some imagined divine moral arbiter, and that the saving comes through some poor fella who was executed by the Romans a couple thousand years ago.

Why not just be good? Then there is no problem and no need for such a convoluted and credulity-taxing "solution."

And if we are good, who cares about all that other stuff? Does God care? Surely not, or She could not be God.

 

[Alceste]

In actuality, it's the definition of all Christians.
Cant be a Christian with out the teachings of Christ and you cant have the teachings of Christ with out the bible.

There is a heck of a lot more than the teachings of Christ in the Bible, and you are incorrect. There are several Christian denominations who do in fact worship Christ rather than a book about Christ written by men.

It's impossible to make any particular religion your own if it doesn't exist.
And taking examples that are extra canonical adds to the belief system, (effectively making it something else) which applys to any religion.
Logically, the best way to understand anything is to use an unaltered source.
Like the bible.
By denying it you're effectively learning about the individuals who call themselves Christians and not the religion itself.
If that's the point you should call it what it is.

I disagree. I understand beyond doubt that what I felt was the Holy Spirit.
But for your benefit I guess I should ask, how do you suggest we observe the inherent capability?
At least I have the benefit of experiencing what I've described.
From what I know, what you're suggesting is impossible.
Which also suggest you have nothing more then I do, which is hearsay.

I learn about Christians from Christians. I live in Canada, though, where the second most common Christian denomination was at one point headed up by someone who did not even believe Christ was literally resurrected from the dead, or that he was God. So perhaps we have differing perspectives.

 

[That Dude]

Lol - no. I just do not understand why anyone goes to all the trouble of declaring that we are all sinners who need "saving" from the supernatural consequences imposed by some imagined divine moral arbiter, and that the saving comes through some poor fella who was executed by the Romans a couple thousand years ago.

Why not just be good? Then there is no problem and no need for such a convoluted and credulity-taxing "solution."

And if we are good, who cares about all that other stuff? Does God care? Surely not, or She could not be God.

It sounds as if you believe what you're sure about is better and closer to morally correct then what I'm sure about?
Which actually sounds more like someone wanting to enlighten other people about their perspective.
You should start writing a bible

 

[That Dude]

There is a heck of a lot more than the teachings of Christ in the Bible, and you are incorrect. There are several Christian denominations who do in fact worship Christ rather than a book about Christ written by men.



I learn about Christians from Christians. I live in Canada, though, where the second most common Christian denomination was at one point headed up by someone who did not even believe Christ was literally resurrected from the dead, or that he was God. So perhaps we have differing perspectives.

Yup, we do.
The truth is a matter of perspective. Something I didn't learn until I became a Christian.

 

[Gloone]

It seems as if you're saying, it's natural to not read the bible. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
The bible says, that there are things that seem natural to man, but it leads to death.

Religion is a concept conceived by man.
The only reason the bible has to be about religion is if people make it that way.
First and foremost, the bible is about having a closer relationship with God.
If all you know is that The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one, then you're missing a few hundred pages of information.

Well the way I understand the trinity, it is more like a guide. Just like the bible is sort of a guide. Let's say Jesus died for so and so's sins. Well there is really no reason to read the bible because all as been forgiven. The only thing left to do is live life to the fullest.

 

[That Dude]

Well the way I understand the trinity, it is more like a guide. Just like the bible is sort of a guide. Let's say Jesus died for so and so's sins. Well there is really no reason to read the bible because all as been forgiven. The only thing left to do is live life to the fullest.

How do you understand the trinity at all? Not a sarcastic question but a way to understand what you're saying more easily.
Sounds like you're saying, Jesus is a get out of jail free card and once we have that we should head directly to free parking.

Why not just kill yourself?

 

[Gloone]

How do you understand the trinity at all? Not a sarcastic question but a way to understand what you're saying more easily.
Sounds like you're saying, Jesus is a get out of jail free card and once we have that we should head directly to free parking.

Why not just kill yourself?

Why would you kill yourself if you had a get out of jail free card? I would be putting it to use and making the best out of life than trying to make other peoples life as miserable as possible.

 

[Gloone]

Don't get me wrong. I think the bible can serve a purpose and act as a guide for people that need it. But aside from that I see no real purpose for it.

 

[That Dude]

Why would you kill yourself if you had a get out of jail free card? I would be putting it to use and making the best out of life than trying to make other peoples life as miserable as possible.

That still hasn't made your point any clearer.
It's kind of gotten worse by being distorted through personal opinion.

 

[Gloone]

That still hasn't made your point any clearer.
It's kind of gotten worse by being distorted through personal opinion.

Alright don't make me start preaching like Jesus and slap verses on your like I'm at the lectern.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

What is it that you have a hard time understanding or isn't clear?

 

[That Dude]

Alright don't make me start preaching like Jesus and slap verses on your like I'm at the lectern.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

What is it that you have a hard time understanding or isn't clear?

lol I'm a hypocrite because I don't understand you?
I admit, that I believe you need the bible to understand Christianity and to get closer to God. But how does that translate to being hypocritical?

I didn't mean to sound rude, I just want to understand your philosophy.
You're not giving to much information on the subject.
With me it's easy, because I say, what I believe is in the bible.
With you, it's not so easy because the only point of reference I have is you and all you're saying is, you believe in the trinity.
Which means, I'm guessing at everything else. I'm even guessing at what everything else is.
See what I mean? You're not to informative. I have no recourse but to be confused.

 

[Alceste]

It sounds as if you believe what you're sure about is better and closer to morally correct then what I'm sure about?
Which actually sounds more like someone wanting to enlighten other people about their perspective.
You should start writing a bible

If I took away your Bible and locked up your church, would you suddenly be unable to tell the difference between right and wrong?

If I were to write a holy book, it would be this long: "love your neighbour". Everything else seems like a distraction from simply being good. If you were to ask me what constitutes a Christian, it would be this: "love your neighbour."

If you can snip that phrase out of the Bible and live by it, I suspect you could burn the rest - with Christ's blessing.

 

[Civil Shephard]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

No... Jesus didn't need a savior... he was the only sinless human and so became the Savior.

All humans are sinners and have missed the mark of the ideal person they want to or could be so you pose the question that no answer will suffice. You already know the example of Job who Satan accuses with a question, "Does Job serve God for nothing?"

Do you ask this question for nothing? Why waste valuable time asking a question of Christians that no answer will suffice? Is it because you know you are a sinner in need of a savior or is it because you think of yourself as a sinless human?

Sometimes the answer to the question is the question itself.

 

[That Dude]

If I took away your Bible and locked up your church, would you suddenly be unable to tell the difference between right and wrong?

If I were to write a holy book, it would be this long: "love your neighbour". Everything else seems like a distraction from simply being good. If you were to ask me what constitutes a Christian, it would be this: "love your neighbour."

If you can snip that phrase out of the Bible and live by it, I suspect you could burn the rest - with Christ's blessing.

That post was longer then, "love your neighbor". haha

An explanation was needed, otherwise I wouldn't know what you were talking about, why it was important or how to pass the sentiment along.
If it's really that easy then maybe you could spend the day telling everyone you run into to, "love your neighbor". And let them sort it out.