If Adam had not sinned.

[Katzpur]

If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?

It doesn't matter whether he sinned or not. He's going to Heaven just like everybody else.

 

[Thief]

i don't think this allegory suggest that.
i believe the act of instigating ones free will (whatever that is) opened the door to another dimension...but even that leaves room for debate; did god ever intend for humans to have free will (whatever that is) but wanted trained obedient humans instead...

Well okay....if we can get past the line of thought in which the tree is physical....

That the tree is symbolic...fine.
The acquisition of knowledge would still be real.

There's another thread around here insisting the Garden event was a set up.
God did it on purpose as a test. Adam and Eve failed.

That would lean to the idea that God was not able to know the outcome of the test....or....
He knew the outcome and was just setting up an excuse to condemn His creation.

I don't buy either notion.

Having made an alteration in the physical.....cloning Adam....
an alteration of the mind was also played.

The course of Man was redirected in body.
To be sure of it....a change in Man's awareness was also placed.

That Man did not acquire eternal life....physically....is not condemnation.

Man simply isn't ready for eternal life...until his last breath.

Then the angels come to see what rises from the dust.

 

[McBell]

There's another thread around here insisting the Garden event was a set up.
God did it on purpose as a test. Adam and Eve failed.

That would lean to the idea that God was not able to know the outcome of the test....or....
He knew the outcome and was just setting up an excuse to condemn His creation.

I don't buy either notion.

So you think that God knew the outcome before hand, still went through with it, yet it was not a setup?

Now that has got to be some Olympic class mental gymnastics.

 

[Thief]

So you think that God knew the outcome before hand, still went through with it, yet it was not a setup?

Now that has got to be some Olympic class mental gymnastics.

I did say so...I don't buy either notion.

What wrong....confused again?

 

[McBell]

I did say so...I don't buy either notion.

What wrong....confused again?

Nice transference you got going there.
Though, thinking about it, your transference would explain quite a bit...

 

[Thief]

Nice transference you got going there.
Though, thinking about it, your transference would explain quite a bit...

So...back to post #62.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

According to the few references of Sheol in the Hebrew Tanakh, it is the afterlife for everyone.
Sheol is like the Greek Hades, the abode of the dead (hence a Netherworld or Underworld), where everyone go. It is not heaven, which is the abode of God and angels.
In Greek religion and myth, the Underworld, or Hades, was not hell, but there was a region in Hades, in which was called Tartarus; a place where only the worse were kept there and punished (like Tantalus, Sisyphus) and where the Titans were imprisoned. Most people go to the Field of Asphodel, but a very special few went to Elysian Field. The Elysian Field is not heaven too.
So to answer your question, Protoman. Adam most likely went to the Abode of the Dead (Sheol), like everyone else including other prophets (with the possible exceptions of Enoch and Elijah).

Afterlife only in the form of a resurrection.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many'.-Matt 20v28 B

The reason Matthew wrote 'many' and not 'all' is because those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 are Not considered in the Bible hell [hades/ sheol]
They experience 'second death' which is destruction. No resurrection anywhere to heaven or right here on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign.

A different word 'Gehenna' often translated as hellfire was a dump were things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna became a fitting symbol of destruction.

As the 'Bible hell' is different from the 'pagan hell' so also with tartarus.
The Bible tartarus is a condition not a location. 2nd Peter 2v4; Eph 6vs10-12
A prison-like abased condition for only disobedient or fallen angels.
The bad angels of Noah's day were cast into Tartarus [Greek: tartaro'o]
1st Peter 3v20.

Adam originally being humanly perfect did not repent or show remorse for his sinning. Satan originally being angelically perfect did not repent or show remorse for sinning. Satan will be destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
So Satan will experience 'second death'.- Rev 21v8.
Adam experienced not sheol but second death because the 'perfect' can only sin on purpose, not by mistake as we can.

Jesus went to the Bible hell. Acts 2vs27,31

Elijah experienced the 'mid heavens' of our atmosphere.
The windstorm moved him from one location to another place alive.
Elijah did not die at that time and was still an active prophet five year later.
2nd Chron 21vs12-15

Enoch was protected by God so his opposers would not kill Enoch.
God 'took Enoch' in that his life was cut short.
Enoch was no where to be found because like Moses God disposed of Enoch body.- Hebrews 11v5; Deut 34vs5,6; Jude 9

Remember as John 3v13 says: No man [includes Enoch and Elijah] except Jesus ascended to heaven. Even David did not ascend to heaven according to Acts 2v34; 13v22; 24v15.

The way to heaven was Not opened up until Christ. All that died before Christ are offered an 'earthly resurrection' starting during Jesus millennial reign over earth. -John 11v24; 6vs40,44,54

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So you think that God knew the outcome before hand, still went through with it, yet it was not a setup?
Now that has got to be some Olympic class mental gymnastics.

All creation whether angelic or human are created as free moral agents.

Sure God has foreknowledge because we can read about the happy climax of Revelation when all nations [of earth] will be blessed with healing or curing.
-Rev 22v2; Gen 22vs17,18

But, as to who will be part of the all nations during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, God lets us decide of our own free will. We choose whether we are the 'sheep' or 'goats' of Matthew [25vs31,32] by the way we choose to listen and obey Christ as our guide.
-Deut 30v19; 32v5

 

[McBell]

All creation whether angelic or human are created as free moral agents.

Sure God has foreknowledge because we can read about the happy climax of Revelation when all nations [of earth] will be blessed with healing or curing.
-Rev 22v2; Gen 22vs17,18

But, as to who will be part of the all nations during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, God lets us decide of our own free will. We choose whether we are the 'sheep' or 'goats' of Matthew [25vs31,32] by the way we choose to listen and obey Christ as our guide.
-Deut 30v19; 32v5

So it is fine that God set man up to fail, repeatedly, because of what you think Revelation says?

Wow.

 

[BeeBooga]

marker~ mistyping.

 

[gnostic]

Afterlife only in the form of a resurrection.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many'.-Matt 20v28 B

The reason Matthew wrote 'many' and not 'all' is because those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 are Not considered in the Bible hell [hades/ sheol]
They experience 'second death' which is destruction. No resurrection anywhere to heaven or right here on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign.

A different word 'Gehenna' often translated as hellfire was a dump were things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna became a fitting symbol of destruction.

As the 'Bible hell' is different from the 'pagan hell' so also with tartarus.
The Bible tartarus is a condition not a location. 2nd Peter 2v4; Eph 6vs10-12
A prison-like abased condition for only disobedient or fallen angels.
The bad angels of Noah's day were cast into Tartarus [Greek: tartaro'o]
1st Peter 3v20.

Adam originally being humanly perfect did not repent or show remorse for his sinning. Satan originally being angelically perfect did not repent or show remorse for sinning. Satan will be destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
So Satan will experience 'second death'.- Rev 21v8.
Adam experienced not sheol but second death because the 'perfect' can only sin on purpose, not by mistake as we can.

Jesus went to the Bible hell. Acts 2vs27,31

Elijah experienced the 'mid heavens' of our atmosphere.
The windstorm moved him from one location to another place alive.
Elijah did not die at that time and was still an active prophet five year later.
2nd Chron 21vs12-15

Enoch was protected by God so his opposers would not kill Enoch.
God 'took Enoch' in that his life was cut short.
Enoch was no where to be found because like Moses God disposed of Enoch body.- Hebrews 11v5; Deut 34vs5,6; Jude 9

Remember as John 3v13 says: No man [includes Enoch and Elijah] except Jesus ascended to heaven. Even David did not ascend to heaven according to Acts 2v34; 13v22; 24v15.

The way to heaven was Not opened up until Christ. All that died before Christ are offered an 'earthly resurrection' starting during Jesus millennial reign over earth. -John 11v24; 6vs40,44,54

Okay, you are going by the concept of Christian afterlife, with what is essentially a Hebrew texts. I was informing Protoman, of Jewish belief. The 2 concepts are totally different, and when you put Jesus into a Judaic pot, you change the context of story.

The Christian concept of people or believers being resurrected and LIVING IN HEAVEN was a totally foreign to the Judaism before Jesus' time. The idea of living in the same plane of existence as God is a pagan idea. Jesus' or Paul's idea would be close to blasphemy or sacrilege, because shades of humans are not equal to God or be in God's presence.

Even many of the pagan belief of afterlife showed that the shades or souls of men don't get to live with the gods in heaven; they may get to live with gods of the Netherworld, but that as far as it go. Those judged worthy may get special treatment, like Gilgamesh becoming a minor god of the Netherworld, but he would not be able to live with Anu, Enlil or Enki.

 

[Protoman]

Afterlife only in the form of a resurrection.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many'.-Matt 20v28 B

The reason Matthew wrote 'many' and not 'all' is because those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 are Not considered in the Bible hell [hades/ sheol]
They experience 'second death' which is destruction. No resurrection anywhere to heaven or right here on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign.

A different word 'Gehenna' often translated as hellfire was a dump were things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna became a fitting symbol of destruction.

As the 'Bible hell' is different from the 'pagan hell' so also with tartarus.
The Bible tartarus is a condition not a location. 2nd Peter 2v4; Eph 6vs10-12
A prison-like abased condition for only disobedient or fallen angels.
The bad angels of Noah's day were cast into Tartarus [Greek: tartaro'o]
1st Peter 3v20.

Adam originally being humanly perfect did not repent or show remorse for his sinning. Satan originally being angelically perfect did not repent or show remorse for sinning. Satan will be destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
So Satan will experience 'second death'.- Rev 21v8.
Adam experienced not sheol but second death because the 'perfect' can only sin on purpose, not by mistake as we can.

Jesus went to the Bible hell. Acts 2vs27,31

Elijah experienced the 'mid heavens' of our atmosphere.
The windstorm moved him from one location to another place alive.
Elijah did not die at that time and was still an active prophet five year later.
2nd Chron 21vs12-15

Enoch was protected by God so his opposers would not kill Enoch.
God 'took Enoch' in that his life was cut short.
Enoch was no where to be found because like Moses God disposed of Enoch body.- Hebrews 11v5; Deut 34vs5,6; Jude 9

Remember as John 3v13 says: No man [includes Enoch and Elijah] except Jesus ascended to heaven. Even David did not ascend to heaven according to Acts 2v34; 13v22; 24v15.

The way to heaven was Not opened up until Christ. All that died before Christ are offered an 'earthly resurrection' starting during Jesus millennial reign over earth. -John 11v24; 6vs40,44,54

Nice answer. Thank's for the sciptures.

 

[James Humphreys]

If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?

Yes, but not by himself. Without Eve and a family it wouldn't be heaven.

 

[James Humphreys]

It doesn't matter whether he sinned or not. He's going to Heaven just like everybody else.

I agree that the destiny of all is heaven eventually, but begging to differ, it does matter very much whether Adam sinned. If he and Eve hadn't all the suffering of thousands of years wouldn't have taken place. Also, God himself has undergone great suffering due to the fall of Adam and Eve (Gen 6:6).

 

[Katzpur]

I agree that the destiny of all is heaven eventually, but begging to differ, it does matter very much whether Adam sinned. If he and Eve hadn't all the suffering of thousands of years wouldn't have taken place. Also, God himself has undergone great suffering due to the fall of Adam and Eve (Gen 6:6).

When I said that it doesn't matter, all I meant was that the fact that he sinned wouldn't have kept him from going to Heaven. I agree with the rest of what you just said.

 

[McBell]

Without Eve and a family it wouldn't be heaven.

Seems that this is merely your personal take on heaven.
I know several people who would think being with family after death would be hell.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I would like to point out Genesis 3:22 - 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

God banished Adam and Eve from Eden just so they wouldn't be granted with everlasting life by eating the fruit from the tree of life.

With just a little bit of scripture you could start your own cult. Kool-Aid anyone?

 

[waitasec]

we don't live forever, this fairy tale explains why...

 

[Koldo]

With just a little bit of scripture you could start your own cult. Kool-Aid anyone?

Do you disagree with what is written in the bible?

Oh no....You can't....
Or can you?

 

[gnostic]

Do you have a proof text for this, or is this a guess?

If it is a guess, let me do some guessing too.

Elohim said man would die if he ate from the tree in the midst of the Garden. Man ate of the tree and lived on physically. Therefore, the death must have been spiritual.

But this is speculating too.

Nothing in the Genesis 2-3 speaks of spirits or souls.

And nothing suggests that they were immortals BEFORE they ate fruit. From what I can see, they were already mortals.