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Ideas concerning the cross. || JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Really, "the truth as YOU see it" makes it "FACT"?

    Shouldn't you have said, "we don't hold back in telling the truth AS WE SEE IT"?
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From the NASB...
    "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

    OK......what is "the chair (or seat) of Moses" mentioned here? The Pharisees had 'appointed themselves to Moses’ place,' by presumptuously claiming his authority as interpreters of divine law. Therefore when they read from the Hebrew scriptures, the people were told to observe their words....but not to follow their terrible example. He said that they did not practice what they preached.

    I see Christendom doing the same. They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Talk is cheap. It is only those "doing the will of the Father" who get the nod from his appointed judge. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Angry? Um, no I find it weird TBH. I have to smile at your quotes and wonder what on earth you are on about....:shrug:
    I am fascinated to know what these terrible doctrines are that we fool people into believing before we entrap them....?

    I have been doing a bit of research into your favored pastor, Tony Evens.
    It says in Wiki....
    "Tony Evans, Th.D, is a Christian pastor, speaker, author, and a widely syndicated radio and television broadcaster in the United States. He was the first African American to earn a doctorate in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary."

    So I understand why you might see the ministry as something that requires educational doctorates with degrees recognized by men.....but are they recognized by God? Is "theology" really Christianity?...or is it 'churchianity'? Do people know the difference?

    It is apparent that his church is located in Dallas Texas. But are there congregations of his followers all over the world? How is this man's church any different to all the other Protestant churches in America? When I looked at their beliefs, they are pretty much the same as the ones I grew up with. Do y'all go out preaching like Jesus and his apostles did? Would anyone from your church be likely to knock on my door here in Australia any time soon with the "good news of the kingdom"? Or is it all done on the radio or the internet? What happens to people in countries where they have no radio or computers? Does he telepath Jesus' message to them? [​IMG]

    I am glad you asked.....:)

    What did Jesus say to this man in answer to his request to be remembered when Jesus came into his kingdom? He was obviously not a disciple because it mentions in Matthew 27:44 that both of the thieves were rebuking Jesus at one point. So this man must have had a change of heart in his suffering. He came to appreciate that they were getting what they deserved, but Jesus was not.

    In verse 43, Jesus answered him..... "Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise." There are no commas in Greek, so that is what Jesus said. How should it read without commas? It was the translators who put the commas in. What if the comma was placed after the word "today"? Wouldn't that change the whole response?

    Consider what it means with the commas placed where the ESV put them. It is a promise that the man would be with Jesus that very day in paradise. Is that what is backed up by the rest of scripture? Did Jesus go to 'paradise' that day? No he did not. Jesus was dead in his tomb for three days and three nights, just as he said he would be. (Matthew 12:40) On the third day he rose from the dead, but did he return to heaven then? No he did not. He remained for a further 40 days to strengthen his disciples before his departure. (Acts 1:3)

    Notice too that Jesus did not promise the man 'heaven, but "paradise". Where was the first paradise mentioned in the Bible? It was right here on earth. Since Jesus is seen in Revelation with his bride bringing Kingdom rulership to the earth, (Revelation 21:2-4) and since he promised to resurrect both the righteous and the unrighteous, whom he calls out of their graves, (John 5:28-29) then is it apparent to me that Jesus was not promising this man a place in heaven, but a resurrection under the rule of his kingdom on earth. It is yet future. The man has been sleeping in death all this time. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

    Hmmmm...I thought I already did. [​IMG]
     
  3. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Maybe, maybe not, but that's irrelevant since inquisitions didn't become a thing until the 1100's in France. So the "wheat" would have had centuries to spread their teachings with relative impunity in all corners of the Christian world, from Ireland in the northwest to China in the east and Ethiopia in the south. Even if we were to say that the Roman Empire cracked down on the "wheat" for whatever reason, big whoop, there was still Armenia, Persia, Arabia, China and Ethiopia for you guys to have taken root in during those centuries. Not to mention the rest of Europe outside of Rome's control. Heck, even during the time of the pagan Roman Empire, they would have had it just as rough as any other Christian sect, so for the first three hundred years there would have been very much a level playing field where you guys could have easily won out. No doubt your ideas would have been very attractive to many Jewish Christians and Noahides/God-fearers.

    The Spanish Inquisition was only during the late 1400's, and actively went against the wishes of several Popes. Unfortunately, the Papacy was in too weak a position to do anything about it. Spain strong-armed Rome numerous times during the whole affair.

    Not sure what to say here about this whole anecdote, other than thanks for proving my point about some Catholics being poorly educated in their faith or poorly trained in certain ministries.

    K, then distinguish them for me. But wait, you can't show me any documentation about this stuff. Awkward.

    I could take this entire rant of yours and say it as an Orthodox Christian and literally no one would know the difference. Or a Muslim could say it, even. Things like this are just words with no real content.

    Alright, there was corruption among the clergy. But you haven't proven that Israel was in apostasy during the first century. They only worshiped God. They obeyed the Commandments (even if some Pharisees and Sadducees were off their rockers with their priorities and pride).

    You mean asides from the incense offering before the mercy seat of the Ark in the Holy of Holies, and where blood is smeared on the mercy seat? (Leviticus 16:12-13)

    No, Jesus had to be found to be breaking Roman law in order to kill Him (John 20:31), which is why the Sanhedrin had to accuse Him of encouraging the Jews not to pay taxes and to rebel against Caesar. (Luke 23:1-3) Again, Jesus could have very easily rebuffed the Jewish claims by saying "Guys, I'm not claiming to be God, chill already". But He doesn't. He instead turns it back around on them and effectively says in John 10:33-36 "If God calls those who hear His Word 'gods', then how much more of Him Who was sanctified and sent into the world to do His works? I am in the Father, and the Father is in me." He kept continually stressing His perichoresis with the Father.

    We see our union with God as a perichoresis, or a mutual indwelling. The Father dwells in the Son (Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9), and the Son is in the Father (John 17:21). We are called to share in the holiness of the Trinity, to be perfect as our Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48), to be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), ascending from glory to glory in the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18), being conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29). Our union with God and with Christ is a communion, wherein we share in the inner life of the Holy Trinity, which is a communion of love. We always remain human, and yet we participate in the perichoresis--God in us, us in God (John 14:20-23).

    You would be able to make this argument if your translation of the Bible rendered "proskyneo" as "worshiped" in Acts 10:25 and Revelation 19:10. But it doesn't, so you are left to conjecture about different extents of what proskyneo means in terms of not being worship.

    Additionally, if the magi really were Babylonians, then their proskyneo of Jesus was in fact worship of Him, since kings and emperors were seen as gods on earth in those times. We have but to look to the Roman imperial cult Hence why the Magi brought the offerings that they did--gold, frankincense and myrrh. But no, in every single case in your translation where proskyneo is rendered to anyone other than God, it is rendered as "obeisance" 100% of the time, even in the above-named instances where rendering it as "worship" would actually make more sense. Point being, it's not always immediately clear how "proskyneo" should be rendered in any given instance.

    To them, the two were one and the same. Kings were effectively gods in the ancient world, and worshiped as such.

    Okay cool, I never said they were. So your next points here are irrelevant.

    You got Scripture to back this up?

    IDK, maybe for the same reason you think He used "apostates" to decide the canon of the New Testament.

    I've already been over John 1:1 and John 10:38 with you, but fine, I can quote others. Let's go over Hebrews 1, where it is said of the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever". St. Paul is quoting the Septuagint, and that is how Psalms 45:6 is rendered in the Septuagint. Had St. Paul intended the Masoretic reading, he could have easily used that instead.

    Jesus calls Himself "the first and the last, the beginning and the end". Tell me what that could possibly mean, if not a reference to Isaiah 44:6?

    @djhwoodwerks also did a solid job of this, and I totally stole his point. Jesus does accept worship, such as from the Apostles (Luke 24)

    It's simple, really. Like St. Paul told the Thessalonians to do in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, I hold to the traditions that have been given to me, whether by what they said verbally (the Apostles' teachings which never got written down) or by what they wrote (the writings of the New Testament). You only hold to their epistles, but deprive yourself of what was passed down by word of mouth and then slowly got written down by succeeding generations. If my defenses look thin, it's only because I'm choosing to do this with one arm tied behind my back. Were I to quote for you from those who were handpicked by the Apostles to succeed them, this case would be open-and-shut. Unless you think the Apostles handpicked apostates to succeed them?

    But, show me from Scripture where it says that Scripture alone should be used as the source of Christian doctrine? Because right now I can use Scripture to prove that Scripture is NOT the only source of Christian doctrine.
     
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  4. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Where do you get the idea from in Scripture that "ALL prior knowledge" was returned to Him?

    The Douay-Rheims is also known to be a garbage translation in general. It's the reason that Catholics don't use it anymore. Acually, this should read "the Lord is THE Spirit". There's a definite article before "pneuma".

    In Acts 5:3-4, Peter calls the "holy spirit" "ho theos" (the God, in case you've forgotten). But I think @djhwoodwerks covered this one already.

    Better ask Elijah. If God created the heavens and the earth, He can make a flesh-and-blood human live in Heaven.

    You also have to keep in mind that the word for "physical" is psychikos, or worldly/natural. We see this word used in other contexts to mean devoid of the spiritual (1 Corinhians 2:14, James 3:15, Jude 1:19). At the Resurrection, our bodies will no longer be worldly, or without the Spirit of God, or subject to corruption, sickness or weakness. Just check verses 42-44 again for proof.

    Got Scripture for that?

    Good, you agree with the Catholics on at least one thing.

    Note the word for "perfect" is "teleioo", the same word for "complete". Jesus had to be made complete in the human condition, as you yourself state similarly. He had to "complete" (teleioo) His mission on earth. Jesus experienced completely all that we do (except sin, of course) so He could serve as our High Priest.
     
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  5. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't needing an English lesson, but thank you! My point is, you said,

    How was the man on the cross next to Jesus obedient to God? How did that man do "the will of God? You're correct, he WASN'T a disciple, he WASN'T obedient, so how was he going to be saved?

    So it was just his "change of heart" that saved him? But wait, he was never baptized, he never went door to door spreading the "good news of the kingdom", he never participated in the Lords meal, by rejecting the emblems. How was it possible this man was saved?
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Read Luke 2:15-21, yes they were!

    Luke 2:15-21 (ESV Strong's) 15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.
    21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
     
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  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Really Deeje?

    Matthew 2:9-10 (ESV Strong's) 9 After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

    Why didn't "the devil" have Herod follow the star then? Why did Herod send the the wise men to find him and come back and tell him where Jesus was?
     
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  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    As usual, you refuse to answer a simple question and just deflect it. I would have to assume, therefore, that your education is probably far less than the average Catholic priest, and this becomes important because you frequently have portrayed Catholics as being ignorant on Christian matters. Since I worked with numerous priests over the years, I can categorically say my experience is different.

    Well, I would hope that all of us are that way, but you still didn't answer my question.

    Since Judaism teaches about having faith in God and leading a moral life, I have to assume by the above that you believe in the opposite.

    Since you have been so disingenuous and judgmental on so many different counts, Deeje, frankly I hate to say this but I no longer can believe anything you post. I'm not saying you're not telling the truth above, but I simply do not have any faith in you to do so.

    I think I was quite clear about that.

    When did I ever say or imply I wasn't, Deeje? Where have you been?

    Yes, but it is not you who will be doing that judging, and yet you won't stop trying to do so.

    Oh, that's "precious", Deeje. I don't think there's like one person who's not a JW here at RF that would not be aware of the JW's constant proselytizing, and it even shows up in your post here. Do you really think we're that stupid, Deeje?

    Did you ever stop and think that maybe the "religion" [denomination] that you converted to may be a "false religion"? As we've seen over and over again, your judgmentalism against others is your belief that you can speak and judge for God in defiance of what both Jesus and Paul taught.

    Frankly, Deeje, you have shown over and over again that you really do not believe that strongly in the NT-- only in your JW leaders. Nor is even basic morality important to you as you continue to demean people and groups.

    Anyhow, I obviously have come to a point whereas having any serious discussion with someone as disingenuous as you have been is quite fruitless, therefore I will back out of this "discussion". I truly hope some day you'll see what you have been doing is being both immoral and in defiance of the compassion and justice (fairness) that Jesus taught.

    Take care.
     
    #148 metis, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  9. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Do you, Deeje, tell people while you're presenting the truth to them that, when and if they become associated with your org, that they will HAVE to accept everything that the slave says or they will be disfellowshipped and if they have any family or friends in the org they will lose them?

    Do you tell them that when they are baptized, they will be committing themselves to God THRU association with the org? That it is not a direct commitment to God, but to God THRU the org. That is, by making a commitment to your org, they commit to God?

    Do you tell them that your 'slave' is Jesus' "substitute?

    Do you tell them that there is no salvation outside of your org?

    Do you tell them that your 'slave' doesn't claim to be infallible, they admit not being inspired by the Holy Spirit, but they will have to believe and accept what they say as the direct, Spirit revealed word of God?

    Do you tell them that God will let your 'slave' teach them an error for years, until He/God is ready to show them the truth?

    Do you tell them that Jesus assigned the preaching work to the 'slave' and the 'slave' subcontracted the work out to the "other sheep" to do for them?

    Do you tell them that they will only benefit from being associated with the 'slave'?
     
  10. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    *** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
    At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:

    On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

    The second is:
    Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
    Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.


    *** w59 8/1 p. 465 par. 8 Spiritual Discernment—an Evidence of Christian Maturity ***

    8 The evidence of this growth in Christian maturity is in the discernment one shows of each step to be taken, of each decision to be made. It begins right with dedication. The one considering dedication must understand first that his dedication is being made, not to some man, nor to please some person, be it husband or wife, mother or father. It is not a dedication to an organization, not even to the New World society. It is a dedication to the Supreme Personage in the universe, Jehovah God.

    I guess the the 1985 wt magazine was "new light" on an old teaching from 1959 huh?
     
  11. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Apparently she missed these verses.

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (ESV Strong's) But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside.Purge the evil person from among you.”
     
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  12. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Magi=/=Jewish shepherds.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I answered you metis, just not the answer you wanted. Entrapment was it?
    Who said a theological degree was necessary? Is there some scripture that demands this?
    Jesus didn't get that memo. [​IMG]

    My education is as good as any of the first Christians got metis...do I need diplomas from men to serve God? Please show me where that is necessary. I have already shown you that Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men so that he could teach them without having to override their formal religious education.

    Yes I did. I have no diplomas or degrees from men or institutions of higher learning...neither did the apostles. I have attended a school for Biblical education for the last 45 years and I will never graduate because there will never be a point when I stop learning. Who said I needed the kind of education given to priests? I have never learned "theology" and have no wish to.

    Is there a college that gives out diplomas for common sense or good parenting? Both of which are seriously lacking in this world today? They would be more useful than the ones you speak of.

    That is up to you metis, but when that day comes, I think you will remember our conversation.

    Over the years that I have been here your religious affiliation has changed several times. You used to identify as Jewish but not anymore. What does it say now? I can be forgiven for being confused. [​IMG]

    I am doing nothing more than Jesus did.....you just don't like it when the Catholic church is exposed for what it is. You have not denied a thing I have posted.....because you can't.

    Its part of my responsibility to tell people what the Bible says......as a follower of Christ I am of necessity, an evangelist......its my job. It isn't proselytizing as much as it is telling the truth as I see it. No one here is forced to read what I write....but I hope it will prompt some to at least start to think and do some research for themselves.

    We have been through this several times....."false religion" started way before Jehovah's modern day Witnesses were in existence. The apostasy is not recent...it goes back many centuries.

    There is no defiance stronger than what Christendom teaches her members. Roman Catholicim is the 'mother' church and all her 'daughters' are just like her. Their core doctrines are what take people away from the truth of God's word. I was raised in that system, so I have been on both sides. I have seen first hand what Christendom does and more importantly, what she fails to do. As I said, we will all stand before the same judge.

    I tell it like it is metis....just like Jesus and his disciples did. Sorry if it offends you....but I believe that everything the church does and teaches, offends God more.

    Indeed. It is time to call a halt to this contest.[​IMG] I have said all I need to say.

    We both have a headache. [​IMG]
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    For someone who can't tell the difference between Jewish shepherds and Babylonian astrologers, you ask some really silly questions. [​IMG]

    Why did the star lead them to Jerusalem to a wicked and jealous King, rather than to Bethlehem where it eventually took them afterwards? Matthew's account says that it stopped right above the "house" where Jesus was. (Matthew 2:11) Use your reasoning ability man. The magi were dupes. They had no idea that the devil was using them to orchestrate the murder of the future King and Messiah of the Jews. The "star" was sent by the devil...not God.

    Herod tried to dupe the dupes by saying that he also wanted to honor this new Prince. When he found out that the magi weren't coming back, he sent his men to Bethlehem to find this child and when they couldn't he had all the male infants, 2 years of age and under, put to death.

    If the magi had been at the stable then Mary and Joseph's offering at the temple (two turtledoves) would have broken Jehovah's law. You think they would have done that?
     
  15. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Kind of like this? This is the "truth as you see it"!

    Luke 2:15-21 (ESV Strong's) 15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.
    21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

    Jesus wasn't even a week old when the "Magi" went to the "stable"!
     
  16. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    The Magi are in Matthew 2... Not Luke 2...
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since your obsession takes you to this place, let me make some things clear so there are no misconceptions. These are your misrepresentations and I will show you why you are dead wrong about Jehovah's people.

    Firstly, no one can "join" Jehovah's Witnesses like you do a church....you can't just walk in and walk out, hold a different point of view, believe whatever you like and no one cares.....this is not what we find in first century Christianity.

    1 Corinthians 1:10....
    "Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you,+ but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

    So unity of belief and agreement among the brotherhood was an expectation. In order to become a Christian, a person had to accept those teachings and abide by them. No one was allowed to bring in their own ideas.

    2 John 10-11....
    "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

    Those who study the Bible with us understand that there is no room in our brotherhood for personal opinion or divisiveness. The ones appointed to lead the congregations were to be obeyed, the congregation displaying a humble spirit, not a haughty one.

    Hebrews 13:17....
    "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

    They are also fully aware that those causing problems in the congregation because of their unchristian conduct, will not be tolerated.

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13.....
    "But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”"

    No one is disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the governing body. People are disfellowshipped for causing division and dissension in our ranks. We remove such persons and we make no apology for it. The apostle John says that anyone who promotes false teachings is to be shunned...."not even eating with such a person". It is a punishment backed up by the whole congregation so that the person is aware of their error....and may come to their senses when they realize what their rebellion has cost them.

    Proverbs 6:16-19...
    There are six things that Jehovah hates;
    Yes, seven things that he detests:
    17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
    19 A false witness who lies with every breath,
    And anyone sowing contentions among brothers."


    So that is where you are wrong. Nothing we do is unscriptural. The shepherds answer to Jesus for the way they care for the flock. Any neglect on their part will have to be accounted for.

    They have been taught in their studies about the "Faithful and Discreet Slave", appointed by Jesus to feed his entire body of servants their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) According to Paul, there are only two tables at which to feed in this world...God's or satan's. (1 Corinthians 10:20-21) Anyone not being "fed" by those appointed by Jesus, will be feeding at the wrong table. The food looks good and tastes nice, but it is contaminated....leading to spiritual delusion and death.

    No because that is not true. The slave is led by the holy spirit which Jesus promised to his anointed ones at Pentecost. What they teach is from Jesus....and like the apostles in the first century, it is kept pure and without contamination, having been cleansed by God at the beginning of "the time of the end" . (Daniel 12:9-10)

    In ancient times, there was no salvation outside of the Jewish religion either. One who wanted to convert to Judaism, had to accept all that Jehovah taught Israel and abide by his laws. He had to adopt the Jewish way of life and worship. Exclusivity was the mark of Jehovah's people all through history...it is the mark of true Christians today. The divided state of Christendom is not representative of Christianity at all. How could it be? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    Since it was to be "food at the proper time", we see that no meal is serve up all at once. There are courses that come in due time throughout the dining period. We are fed what we need to know, when we need to know it. For Christendom, there is only cold mouldy leftovers. They haven't changed a thing since the apostasy began. Where is the 'cleansing and refining' that Daniel foretold? Why was such a cleansing necessary in this time of the end?

    We have shown them that we have anticipated certain things in the past that have not materialized, but we have "kept on the watch" as Jesus instructed us to do. When the watchman on duty saw something coming in the distance he sounded the alarm and the people were in readiness to act if it was necessary. If it proved to be a false alarm, as I have already mentioned, we went back to business as usual. You seem to be more upset about that than we were.
    We are happy to receive whatever spiritual food is delivered to us.....I am sure that you feel the same way about your teacher, Tony Evans. Do you know him personally? What will you do if he teaches something with which you disagree?

    Your making this up. The slave are members of their own congregations and as such are the same as all the other elders there. Since the number of anointed on earth are dwindling and Jesus said that the good news had to be preached "in all the inhabited earth", we are not subcontractors, but helpers in their assignment. Its part of what makes one a "sheep"...assisting Christ's brothers. This is just one way we do that, since it would be impossible for them to carry that assignment out by themselves with so few left on the earth. The command in Matthew 28:19-20 was for all Christians, because Jesus said he was going to be with his disciples "all the days until the conclusion of the system of things"...that would have been a little difficult if the assignment was only given to the apostles, now wouldn't it?

    Huh? Since Jesus appointed one slave to do the feeding of his entire household, it would be a bit silly to take your food from someone else......or to even try and feed yourself.

    It doesn't matter how often these things are discussed you keep right on making the same ridiculous claims. [​IMG]

    [​IMG] If you took your fingers out of your ears, you might actually learn something.
     
    #157 Deeje, Sep 2, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

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    [​IMG] ...at least someone is paying attention.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Just a point of clarification.

    I have always here at RF identified as being Jewish, so I think where you confusion may come in is your misunderstanding of the word "Jewish".

    "Jewish" is a nationality, "Judaism" is a religion. Where there's a direct connection is if a person converts to Judaism they become one with the Jewish "family" as if they were borne into it. That remains as such unless a person converts to another religion, which I have no intention whatsoever of doing.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Are you a Jesus adherent? The title of the thread clearly states that this debate is for Jesus adherents.
     
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