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Ideas concerning the cross. || JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Meandering through...

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    Some xians have opined that the cross is not a good symbol, to be used personally, or otherwise.

    Considering Matthew 16:24

    How much is the "cross", reference, metaphorical, and how much literal? I tend to think of it as more literal.

    The symbol, in my opinion, was used to indicate the followers of Jesus, and this makes sense, as the cross has more than one meaning. If the cross is used, /symbolically, in a manner, that is not denoting of the "crucifixion cross", then does it not mean in those instances, the 'sacrifice'?

    As well,

    Jesus stated take up your cross, /the empty cross, not take up your cross with a depiction of me on it.

    Conversely, the "crucifixion" cross, would not imply ones own cross, anyway.

    Aside from that, the crucifixion //as opposed to the plain, or Christian, cross, is symbolizing the crucifixion as opposed to the resurrection; Is that really the import of Jesus religion? The crucifixion? I don't think so. The sacrifice is important, yet the crucifixion cross is obfuscatory. There is no inherent 'sacrifice' message, there; or perhaps a sacrifice to Ba'al, who knows, it is vague.
     
    #1 Disciple of Jesus, Jun 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I don't personally oppose the use of the cross as a reminder of Christ's crucifixion, but as a Mormon, my focus is on the glorified, resurrected Savior, and not on the man scourged and dying in agony.
     
  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    The crucifixion is Christ's displaying His undying love for sinners. Therefore it is quite significant.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, but the Resurrection demonstrates the results of that love. Anyone could have died, and many people did die by the same horrible means that Jesus did, but only Christ could have conquered death by rising from the dead in glory.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Matthew 16:24:
    "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross, and follow me."

    In this verse, the word "cross" is rendered from the Greek "stauros", which simply means an upright stake....not two beams crossed at any angle. I believe Jesus' words in Matthew 16:24 are metaphorical, symbolizing a Christian's determination to remain faithful and enduring persecution, even to death, as Jesus was.

    The cross itself is one of the oldest religious symbol in existence.....pre-dating Christianity by centuries.

    It is apparent from history, that from the very early centuries BCE, the cross was venerated in Egypt and Syria. It was held in equal honor by the Buddhists of the East; and interestingly, when the Spaniards first visited America, the well-known sign was found among the objects of worship in the idol temples of Anáhuac. (the heartland of Aztec Mexico) It is also interesting to note that, at the beginning of our modern era, the pagans used to make the sign of the cross upon the forehead of participants in the celebration of some of their sacred mysteries.

    To me, it would be highly unlikely that something connected with as many forms of paganism as the cross is, would be approved as a religious symbol pertaining to the death of the son of God.

    It is actually a bizarre thing to make a replica of something used to kill someone you love, and to adorn your house or place of worship with it, or to use it as jewellery.

    "That Christ did not die on the traditionally shaped cross is also indicated by the testimony of the catacombs. Thus Dean Burgon, in his Letters from Rome, wrote: “I question whether a cross occurs on any Christian monument of the first four centuries.” Mons Perret, who spent fourteen years doing research in the catacombs of Rome, counted in all a total of 11,000 inscriptions among the millions of tombs. According to him, “not until the latter years of the fourth century does the sign of the cross appear.” Among the signs that do appear are the dove, a symbol of the holy spirit; the lyre, a symbol of joy; the anchor, a symbol of hope and the fish. Why the fish? Because the letters of the word “fish” in Greek are the same as the first letters of “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.”

    That Christ did not die on the traditionally shaped cross is also indicated by the Bible itself. It repeatedly tells of his dying on a tree, the Greek word being xylon. (See Luke 23:31; Acts 5:30;10:39.) Xylon simply means “timber,” and “by implication a stick, club or tree or other wooden article or substance.”5 That is why the Gospel writers all use xylon to refer to the staves or clubs that the mob carried when they came to take Jesus. (See Matthew 26:47, 55; Mark 14:43, 48; Luke 22:52.) By saying that Christ died on a xylon these indicated that Christ died on a timber, a piece of wood."


    WAS THE STAUROS OF JESUS CROSS-SHAPED? See.... https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9071/9071-h/9071-h.htm#CH1

    The shape of the instrument used to execute Jesus is not important....it was his death that accomplished redemption for obedient humans. If he had been hung, would we see gallows adorning churches and worn as jewellery, perhaps with the figure of Jesus hanging from the rope? [​IMG]

    Exactly. What Jesus told his disciples to "take up" was a course of life that could well mean persecution and death.

    It demonstrated a willingness to uphold faith and belief in the face of certain death. That was the test of a Christian's loyalty.

    [​IMG]
    Fertility Meaning
    As a symbol of fertility, the Egyptian Ankh Cross had a loop which represented the female reproductive organ in union with the male. This reflects the creation of new life. It was a symbol of what produced life....copulation.

    Because of its ancient pagan history, and the fact that God's people were forbidden to "make" images for use in worship, I personally believe that the cross is offensive to God and his Christ.
     
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  6. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Meandering through...

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    Thanks for the contribution, even if we don't fully agree on the use of symbols.
     
  7. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Meandering through...

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    In that context, I think the empty/plain cross, // what is called the Christian cross, is rather a symbol of the resurrection.

    Among other faith related meaning
     
    #7 Disciple of Jesus, Jul 1, 2017
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  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Meandering through...

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    The ankh isn't a cross.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Oh, but it is. The cross part of the ankh was the symbol of the male sex organ.....the loop was the female. The cross was originally a phallic symbol....hardly something that should represent the death of Christ.

    The different crosses that people might be familiar with are....(please look them up)

    The Sun Cross is Babylonian in origin.
    The Tau was the symbol of the god Tammuz. (Ezekiel 8:13-14)
    The Celtic Cross is a fusion between their former pagan religious beliefs and their adoption of 'Christianity'.
    The Maltese cross originated from the knights of the Crusades. The Catholic crusaders, (supposedly Christian, and sanctioned by "the Church) spilled blood by the bucketload but Christ taught his followers to be peacemakers. (Matthew 5:1-14)
    The swasticker is also an ancient cross.

    Whatever way you look at it...the cross is associated with paganism way more through history than it ever was with true Christianity. It was "adopted" by "the church" in the fourth century by Constantine.....but not because it was homeless. [​IMG]


    The "stauros" used to put Christ to death may well have been something like this....

    [​IMG]

    It is also described as a "xylon" or "tree" (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1Peter 2:24)

    ....never once is a stauros called a cross.

    But, no matter.!...we are not to use images in worship in any case.
     

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  10. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Meandering through...

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    No, it isn't, Deeje. And if you understood cross symbology at all, christian or otherwise, you would have realized that. That is why the other examples of crosses are different in meaning, from the ankh. The ankh to cross theory, is about the worst you could have presented, and you would have been better off just stating that the cross is from some other cross.
     
    #10 Disciple of Jesus, Jul 1, 2017
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  11. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    syncretic,
    Whether Jesus was killed on a cross or a tree, or a post, makes no difference. It is the REASON, that Jesus gave his human life for that is vital for us.
    Jesus died for all of us who would follow his steps and obey his and God's commandments, 1Peter 2:21, John 15:10.
    Under the Mosaic Law Covenant, which all Jews were born under, you were required to do certain works, when you sinned, in order to get back in the Grace of God. This was called, Salvation by Works. The blood of these goats or bulls could not really free any person from sins, but God allowed this as a way so that the sentence against a sinner would not be carried out. This was because God was looking forward to the time when Jesus would provide a much better sacrifice, by pouring out his own blood for the forgiveness of the past sins and also for future sins for all true Christians. Jesus provided a Ransom Sacrifice to allow all who would follow him to be forgiven, totally and completely. This precept is explained at Hebrews 10:1-18. Jesus instituted a NEW COVENANT on the night before he died, at the Last Supper, Luke 22:14-20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26. This Covenant was much superior to the Mosaic Law Covenant, and Superceded the Mosaic Law Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13. This Covenant was not Salvation by Works as the Mosaic Law was, but was Salvation by Faith. Jesus provided the Sacrifice and believers were under the Sacrifice so they did not provide an animal any longer. Believers were forgiven for any sins they did by prayer, and Faithfully following Jesus footsteps, 1Peter 2:21.
     
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  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Before anyone's sins are Forgiven they have to Repent of the sin and ask God for his forgiveness of their sin.
     
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  13. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    A number of primary documents and archaeological finds contradict this claim. Consider the oldest-known graffiti, done by a pagan Roman mocking Jesus:

    Alexamenos graffito - Wikipedia
    [​IMG]
    This Roman depicts Jesus on a T-shaped cross (for us traditional Christians who are used to the lower-cased t shape, one can surmise that Jesus was originally crucified on a T-shaped cross, but the sign sticking up out of the cross reading the charge against Him formed the top arm).

    The T-shaped cross is supported by ancient writers from both before and after the time of Jesus, and other graffiti depicting crucifixions:
    Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion - Wikipedia

    Care to explain the Dura Europa Synagogue, or 1 Kings 6, or Exodus 25?
    You better get that memo to St. Paul real quick then, because he writes in Galatians 6:14 that he glories only in the cross of Christ. The man's gotta know that he's offending Christ.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is a given. Unless repentance takes place, no forgiveness is possible. It is also a given as Jesus taught, that if we want God to forgive us, we have to forgiven one another.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This bit of 'graffiti' has been dated to around 200 C.E. or thereabouts. It is our belief that after the death of the apostles,(end of the first century) Christianity began a rapid decline into apostasy as Jesus and the apostles had foretold. The "weeds" of false Christianity had well and truly sprouted by the second century. So we take nothing from the writings of that period (second century through to the foundation of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century) except perhaps for historic interest but certainly not for Biblical teachings.

    From your link....

    "The instrument of Jesus' crucifixion (known in Latin as crux, in Greek as stauros) is generally taken to have been composed of an upright wooden beam to which was added a transom, thus forming a "cruciform" or T-shaped structure.

    Most Christian denominations present the Christian cross in this form, and the tradition of the T-shape can be traced to early Christianity and the Church fathers. However, some scholars of the late 19th century have maintained that it was in reality a simple stake (crux simplex). Various authorities have then linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites. This view was adopted by the Jehovah's Witnesses."
    [​IMG]

    The "tau" or cross with no intersecting cross piece was originally a religious symbol representing the god, Tammuz. (The initial of his name) It was in existence long before Christ . You can see from the image you posted above, that this is a tau, not a "Christian" cross, as this came later.

    Tammuz was a deity over whom apostate Hebrew women in Jerusalem wept. It has been suggested that Tammuz was originally a king who was deified after his death. In Sumerian text, Tammuz is called Dumuzi and is identified as the consort or lover of the fertility goddess Inanna (the Babylonian Ishtar). (Ezekiel 8:14) This is probably the deified Nimrod.....the God who died in the winter but was resurrected in the spring. Easter has its roots here in northern hemisphere paganism.

    If you like.....apostate Judaism was the forerunner of apostate Christianity. History repeats because people keep doing the things God told them not to do......like making images for use in worship.

    From your link....

    The Dura Europa Synagogue....is dated to 244 CE, making it one of the oldest synagogues in the world.

    "Dura-Europos was a small garrison and trading city on the river Euphrates, and usually on the frontier between the Eastern Roman Empireand the Parthian and finally the Sassanid Empires of Persia. It changed hands at various points but was Roman from 165 CE. Before the final Persian destruction of the town in 256-257 CE, parts of the synagogue which abutted the main city wall were apparently requisitioned and filled with sand as a defensive measure. The city was abandoned after its fall and never resettled, and the lower walls of the rooms remained buried and largely intact until excavated. The excavations discovered also very important wall-paintings from places of worship of Christianity, at the Dura-Europos church, and Mithraism, and fragmentary Christian texts in Hebrew.

    Because of the paintings adorning the walls, the synagogue was at first mistaken for a Greek temple, though this was quickly corrected by the vice-director of excavations Robert du Mesnil du Buisson in Les peintures de la synagogue de Doura-Europos (Rome, 1939). Mesnil also made detailed comparisons of the friezes from the Dura synagogue with those of the mithraeum, the Christian baptistery, and the temple of the Palmyrene gods.[1]"


    Does this sound like it is remotely connected to either the Jewish religion mediated by Moses with its total prohibition on the use of images (Exodus 20:4-5) or the Christianity taught be Jesus and his disciples......or is it more akin to the apostate version that sprang up after the second century? The Romans loved Mithra and incorporated their worship of this deity into what became known as Christmas.

    He was speaking about the death of Christ, his taking the shame of sinful mankind in the manner of his death....not glorifying the instrument used to murder him.

    Jesus was executed “by hanging on a tree.” (Acts 5:30, The New Jerusalem Bible) Both of the words used by Bible writers to describe the instrument of Jesus’ death suggest one piece of wood, not two. The Greek word stau·rosʹ, according to Crucifixion in Antiquity, means “a pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’” The word xyʹlon, used at Acts 5:30, is “simply an upright pale or stake to which the Romans nailed those who were thus said to be crucified.

    The Bible relates the method of Jesus’ execution to an ancient Israelite law. The law stipulated: “If a man commits a sin deserving the sentence of death and he has been put to death and you have hung him on a stake, . . . the one hung up is something accursed of God.” (Deuteronomy 21:22, 23) Referring to that law, the Christian apostle Paul wrote that Jesus became a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hung upon a stake [xyʹlon].’” (Galatians 3:13)

    Paul knew exactly what he meant....shame the Churches don't. [​IMG]
     
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  16. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    And the shape of the thing that Jesus was crucified on is most certainly something of "historic interest", wouldn't you say?

    I guess you skipped over this part:

    As shown above, both those claims are debated by scholars. The word by which the Gospels referred to the gibbet on which Jesus died had more than one meaning. It did not necessarily mean a stake, nor did it necessarily mean a cross with cross-bar,[96] but Christian writers long before 300 specifically spoke of that gibbet as having a cross-bar, being either cross-shaped or T-shaped.[97]

    A study edition of the New World Translation supports the denomination's belief by reproducing an illustration from a work by 16th century philologist Justus Lipsius showing a man suspended by the wrists on a crux simplex or upright pole.[98] However, it omits Justus Lipsius' other illustrations of such executions showing a traditional-style cross with cross-bar, in particular that which Lipsius considered to be that corresponding to the execution of Jesus.[99] James Penton, who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness but was expelled from the group for apostasy in 1981, has claimed that the use of the single illustration by the Watch Tower Society "demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism". "Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way", he wrote. "In fact, Lipsius gives sixteen illustrations of impalement, thirteen of which show stakes with some sort of cross member."[100]

    And the upright pole, or stake, was originally a religious symbol representing the Ugaritic goddess, Asherah, goddess of fertility and mother of the gods. Exodus 34:13 speaks of sacred pillars and Asherah, as well. Also, the Celts often incorporated sacred trees or pillars in their places of worship:

    Stone pillars were also prominently situated in Continental Celtic shrines and sanctuaries.' A possibly related concept is that of the bile, an Old Irish word which means a "tree or mast," and especially used to refer to ancient and venerated trees. Sacred assemblies were held beneath these hallowed trees, and it was forbidden to damage them in any way. Sacred places throughout the ancient Celtic world were referred to by the term nemeton, "Sacred Place."" Some of these sites were associated with sacred groves or trees, and it has been suggested that there may be a connection between these sites and the widespread veneration of the World Tree.

    Sharon Paice MacLeod. Celtic Myth and Religion: A Study of Traditional Belief, with Newly Translated Prayers, Poems and Songs​

    Also consider the symbolism of totem poles in some Native American cultures. Additionally, there are staff gods native to the Pacific islands.
    In other words, the "upright stake" that you have Jesus crucified on is nothing more than a pagan symbol of fertility, pagan gods, heathen ancestors and the world-tree.

    The Germanic Heathen holiday of Eostre/Ostara does, but not the Christian holy day of Pascha. They're two separate things.

    You mean outside of the time that God literally told the people of Israel to make images for use in worship in Exodus 25? Or the time that Solomon filled God's temple with images in 1 Kings 6, and God blessed it and dwelled within it?

    He was speaking about the death of Christ, his taking the shame of sinful mankind in the manner of his death....not glorifying the instrument used to murder him.

    Except that xylon is extremely broad in meaning, and can mean any beam of wood or anything made of beams of wood. Stocks (the things that your feet are fastened in, see Acts 16:24), are also xyla. A cross is also made up of two poles, or two xyla.

    Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who lived at the time of the birth of Jesus, described how those condemned to crucifixion were led to the place of execution:

    "A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at that time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both his arms and fastened them to a piece of wood which extended across his breast and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips."[59] Roman Antiquities, VII, 69:1-2

    Dionysius here uses the Greek word xylon (ξύλον) for the horizontal crossbeam (the "patibulum") used in Roman crucifixions; he describes how the hands of the condemned man were tied to it (χεῖρας ἀποτείναντες ἀμφοτέρας [...] προσδήσαντες) for him to be whipped while being led to the place of execution.[60]

    So how does your Bible translate Revelation 18:12? Do you render it here as "stake" or as something else?

    γόμον χρυσοῦ καὶ ἀργύρου καὶ λίθου τιμίου καὶ μαργαριτῶν καὶ βυσσίνου καὶ πορφύρας καὶ σιρικοῦ καὶ κοκκίνου, καὶ πᾶν ξύλον θύϊνον καὶ πᾶν σκεῦος ἐλεφάντινον καὶ πᾶν σκεῦος ἐκ ξύλου τιμιωτάτου καὶ χαλκοῦ καὶ σιδήρου καὶ μαρμάρου,
     
    #16 Shiranui117, Aug 22, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The New Testament writings about the crucifixion of Jesus do not speak specifically about the shape of that cross, but the early writings that do speak of its shape, from about the year 100 CE on, describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau) or as composed of an upright and a transverse beam, sometimes with a small projection in the upright.
    -- Crucifixion - Wikipedia

    There simply is no evidence of any type that the crucifixion of Jesus was on a stake minus the crossbar, so I would suggest that that the smart thing would be to at least lean in the direction of the tradition of the cross as the early church believed it to be.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Perhaps, but why does it matter? It's where the symbol of the cross originated that is of historical interest.....and it wasn't Christianity.
    Apostate Jews adopted the worship of Tammuz in Ezekiel's day and that carried with it the symbol of the sacred "tau"...the initial of his name. What was the shape of "the cross" from the second century, up until Roman Catholicism altered it? It was a "T"....not a " t " and its origins were not Christian.

    In reading why a pagan Roman Emperor changed Christianity forever, it is interesting to note why.

    Christian History Institute

    I read that account with a filter. You perhaps would not. :shrug:

    It is also interesting that Constantine was a worshipper of Zeus, all his life. He accepted "Christianity" but under his own terms. He was not baptized until shortly before his death. Constantine was an astute politician whose only aim was to consolidate his divided empire under one "universal" (Catholic) religion.....it was not, however the same Christianity that was taught by Jesus and his apostles. In no Christian scripture is there sanction for bloodshed, nor is there approval for any of Christ's disciples to be "part of this world". Constantine had a foot in both camps.

    According to Wiki...

    "The Romans tended towards syncretism, seeing the same gods under different names in different places of the Empire, accommodating other Europeans such as the Hellenes, Germans, and Celts, and Semitic and other groups in the Middle East. Under Roman authority, the various national myths most similar to Rome were adopted by analogue into the overall Roman mythos, further cementing Imperial control. Consequently, the Romans were generally tolerant and accommodating towards new deities and the religious experiences of other peoples who formed part of their wider Empire.[2]"

    "According to Christian polemicists writing after his death, Constantine I was baptized on his deathbed, which would make him the first emperor to become a baptized Christian."


    This also confirms that he was not a committed Christian until he had to face death. Baptism in this instance was more like a bit of 'spiritual insurance'....as if God counts such a baptism as authentic. :rolleyes: A pagan to his death, this is the man that changed the course of "the Church"....but hardly for the better. History tells us why.

    In the year 313 C.E, Constantine ruled over a pagan Roman Empire and made an apostate form of Christianity a legal religion. After that, the Church began working closely with the Roman government, which Christ said Christians cannot do. (John 18:36) For example, Constantine's meeting with religious leaders, (the Council of Nicaea)....after that meeting, the emperor sent a priest named Arius into exile because he refused to believe that Jesus is God. (He was right! Nowhere in scripture does Jesus ever claim to be God.)

    Later, Theodosius became the Roman emperor, and the Catholic Church became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Historians say that pagan Rome became “Christian” during the time of Emperor Theodosius. But the truth is that by that time, apostate Christians had accepted many pagan teachings, so they had already become part of Babylon the Great. :facepalm:
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day that....."they strained out gnats but gulped down camels". This is what I see in responses like this. You have missed the point entirely. It isn't the shape of the "stauros" that matters.....it is the fact that God forbade the "making" of "images of anything" to be used in worship....period! (Exodus 20:4-5)

    In Catholicism, images are an integral part of worship as these pictures clearly show....

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am so pleased that you brought this up......pagan stone pillars.

    In the middle of St. Peter's Square is an obelisk and it stands in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel. Do you know why?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The Encyclopedia American, (1964 edition) revealed how the obelisk was related to Sun worship, explaining that this is "a monument representing the sun in ancient Egyptian religion. The Egyptians were sun worshipers, regarding the great luminary as the creator of the universe, the maker of all gods above and below, and even the author of himself...The two most striking characteristic monuments which represented him on earth were the obelisk and the pyramid...Theobelisk is the technical figure of one ray or pencil of light emanating from the sun."

    An obelisk's purpose was to honor the sun-god Ra. They were erected to thank him for his protection and for victories granted to Egyptian sovereigns as well as to request favors. Their shape is thought to have been derived from that of the pyramid. They represent beams of sunlight descending to warm and illuminate the earth.

    Additionally, obelisks were used to glorify the Pharaohs.
    Jeremiah speaks of the breaking of “the pillars of Beth-shemesh, which is in the land of Egypt.” This may refer to the obelisks of Heliopolis. God condemned the idolatrous worship they represented. (Jeremiah 43:10-13)

    In 30 B.C.E., Egypt became a Roman province. Various Roman emperors desired to adorn their capital with monuments of great prestige, so as many as 50 obelisks were transferred to Rome. Moving them meant building huge ships designed especially for that purpose. Once in Rome, the obelisks continued to be closely associated with sun worship.

    When the Roman Empire fell, Rome was ransacked. Most of the obelisks were toppled and lay forgotten. Various popes, however, took an interest in reerecting the obelisks taken from the ruins of the ancient city. The Roman Catholic Church has acknowledged that the obelisks were “dedicated to the Sun by an Egyptian king” and that they once “brought vain magnificence to sacrilegious pagan temples.”

    The re-erection of the first obelisks during the reign of Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) was accompanied by exorcisms and blessings, as well as the sprinkling of holy water and the burning of incense. A Catholic bishop said before the obelisk.....
    “I exorcise you to bear the holy Cross and remain devoid of all pagan impurity and all assaults of spiritual iniquity.”

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102007125?q=obelisk+vatican&p=par

    I will leave you to ponder these things in the light of scripture rather than Catholic justification for disobedience. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Exodus 20:4-5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)
     
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