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Ideas concerning the cross. || JESUS ADHERENTS ONLY.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The proof that Proverbs 8 was speaking metaphorically about the pre-human Jesus is exactly that point. It says that 'Wisdom was produced as the beginning of God's way'....to apply this to God's personal wisdom would mean that God was not always wise, but produced wisdom as a new quality for himself at some point in time. Since God is an eternal being, he has obviously always been wise. Allpied to God's personal wisdom, Proverbs 8 makes no sense.

    Applying It to "the Word" agrees with Colossians 1:15-16, making the Word a creation of God who had a beginning, (Revelation 3:14) and was used as the agency "through" whom creation was fabricated. (John 1:2-3) It is similar to the difference between a construction engineer who oversees a construction project using existing materials, and the architect who determined the design and what materials should be used. The architect is credited with the finished product because he conceived the idea, but the one doing the construction is so mentioned as the builder. An architect will seek out the best construction team to bring his building into physical reality. God did too.
     
  2. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Then what do you make of it when St. Paul says "Christ the power of God and Christ the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24)? You say that God has always had His Wisdom, and Jesus is the Wisdom of God, as the above verse clearly states.
     
  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You are still 'hell bent' on proving that JW's have it all wrong, aren't you djh? This obsession of yours is really sad IMO. Have you not had egg on your face enough times to give it up? If we are wrong, then we are happy with our beliefs. It makes us better husbands, wives, children and families in a world where everything is going belly up. Your little group can be whatever you want them to be....your own leader is a human, yet you believe what he teaches....? Why?

    2 Corinthians 5:17-20...."Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. 18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”"


    What is this telling us? Those "in union with Christ" (i.e. those who are spirit anointed) become a "new creation" with a different destiny to the rest of humanity. These experience the "first resurrection" in order to take up their positions in the Kingdom as 'kings and priests'. (Revelation 20:6) The rest of the dead experience the general resurrection back to life on this earth. (John 5:28-29) Since I am not one of the anointed, my hope is earthly, not heavenly....and I am perfectly happy to be where ever God wants me. I have no desire to go to heaven, but a strong desire to live in paradise conditions on earth where God placed man in the first place.

    Since all of the first Christians (including Paul who wrote the passage above) were spirit anointed, it was these who were to be ambassadors for Christ in continuing the work that Jesus started. We assist Christ's brothers in this work as their numbers continue to dwindle. God knows when the task is complete....we do not.

    No doubt you see yourself in a heavenly role, but are upset that you would have no such position in our brotherhood. I am just wondering when I will see your brethren "preaching in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations"...? Will they be coming to my door any time soon? (Acts 20:20)

    OMG...1922? are you serious? :facepalm: We have had so much clarification since then.

    Its called clarification of existing beliefs. The light on the path is getting brighter. (Proverbs 4:18) My brothers are always researching in the scriptures in search of new understanding. We are not bogged down in doctrines that have not altered since they were introduced from paganism centuries ago.

    Back to 1950 again...you jump around all over the place.....got something up to date?

    You know the greatest lies taught in Christendom are? The ones that dishonor God the most?....the trinity, which elevates the son to the same position as his Father and squeezes thee gods into one head. This is a breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) They also teach that God tortures the wicked in the flames of hell forever...again demeaning to the loving God and Father of Jesus Christ who would never do such a thing. (Jeremiah 7:31)
    It teaches that we don't really die....but rather that some shadowy, fully conscious invisible spirit departs from the body at death to go to places unknown. This is nothing more than a perpetuation of the first lie the devil told in Eden when he said to Eve "you surely will not die". God told Adam he would simply return to the dust. (Genesis 3:19)

    Those appointed by Jesus give us our food at the proper time, and will provide what we need to know, when we need to know it. I can't even imagine what you are being fed. o_O

    As explained to you several times, no one was permitted to approach God as one of his worshippers without membership of the organized earthly group that represented the true God in the times that he provided them. For the Jews, it was belonging to the nation of Israel. For the Christians, it was belonging to the Christian congregation. Since we believe that we have separated from Babylon the great and are no longer captive to her false beliefs and practices, we see our organization as fulfilling the great commission like no other global Christian brotherhood on earth. You are free to disagree, but again, where is your church in fulfilling that commission? (Matthew 28:19-20) It isn't something you can just do locally...it has to be global, being witnesses..."to the most distant part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

    I did answer but obviously not the way you were hoping....so yes, they are given understanding that there is no other organization on earth who believe and teach what we do. We are no part of Christendom or any other part of Babylon the great, and they understand that they cannot be part of it either. It requires months or even years of study to prepare for baptism into Jehovah's family of dedicated worshippers. They all know what they are signing up for, just like I did 45 years ago.

    I believe that I belong to an organized body of Christians who serve in every nation on earth, doing exactly what Jesus commanded them to do. It is not a work that only missionaries do in foreign countries....all of Jehovah's Witnesses are preachers, active in their own neighborhoods. Jesus went to his own people with an unpopular message....he was hated for doing it and he told his disciples that they would be hated for the same reasons. (John 15:18-21) How hated are your church members djh? How active are they in all nations on earth? What is your message of salvation? :shrug:
     
    #184 Deeje, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I do not seem to be getting notifications for your relies Shiranui....I don't know why.:shrug:

    Because of being the "Logos" (the Word) or spokesman for the Most High, he is the one who shares God's wisdom and power with others. He first shared it when he brought other "sons of God" into existence. These, the Bible says were "shouting in applause" when the material universe was brought into existence along with all its inhabitants.(Job 38:4-7)

    It was holy spirit used in creation when God and his firstborn teamed up to prepare the earth for its living souls. (Genesis 1:2)

    Jesus is the one who promised to deliver holy spirit to his disciples at Pentecost. God operates through his son and has done from the beginning of his existence.

    Jesus had a beginning, but his Father did not. (Revelation 3:14)
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    None of that addresses the fact that your 'slave' claims to be Christ's "SUBSTITUTES", they have put themselves in the place of Jesus, claiming to be substitutes for Jesus, and no salvation apart from them.

    I have 10 different Bibles that I use, even your own Kingdom Interlinear Bible, and your 'slaves' bible is the only one that says, "as substitutes for Christ" .

    Substitutes.PNG

    It doesn't say substitutes in Greek, but your 'slave' added it in their translation on the right.
     
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    It may "require" months and years to indoctrinate someone into believing what your org teaches, but it doesn't if the truth is taught,

    Acts 8:35-38 (ESV Strong's) 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

    The eunuch was baptized the same day, probably within hours of Philip's teaching.

    Acts 10:44-48 (ESV Strong's) 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

    When Peter was preaching, the Holy Spirit was poured out and they were baptized the same day. Why does it take your org months or years to get someone "prepared" for baptism?

    Acts 16:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

    People were getting baptized daily, why does it take your org so long?
     
  8. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What are your "kings and priests" doing for the 1,000 years until the "rest of the dead" are resurrected?

    Revelation 20:4-5 (ESV Strong's) They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
     
  9. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    And you believe that your "clarification" makes those lies, errors, false teachings ok?

    They were teaching that Jesus DID appear in 1874 as "indisputable facts". Fulfilled prophecy showed "beyond a doubt" that Jesus DID appear in 1874. All TRUE watchers were familiar with "those facts". It might not mean much to you, but what about ALL the people they deceived with that trash? You don't care about them, do you? The people that died believing that didn't have "accurate knowledge" did they? Where did it leave them? People were forced to accept it, and it wasn't even true.

    *** w50 11/15 p. 462 Fraudulent Religious Relics ***
    All error and lies are of the Devil and are certainly a great reproach and dishonor to God.
    (John 8:44; Rom. 1:25) Consequently, Jehovah is against all such pious frauds that teach lies in His name and He will clean them out at Armageddon.

    I guess that's "old light" too, right? Or is it meant just for Christendom and not your teachers?
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There was much controversy on this issue post Vatican II. The initial instructions to the churches called for a 'cross' on or above the altar. There was also a mindset at the time that the within the celebration of the Mass there was too much 'Good Friday' and not enough 'Easter Sunday'. The empty cross follows the theological view that the Crucifixion and the Resurrection is one event that represents Jesus glorification. But following the conservative mindset the instructions were revised and the Altar cross must be “a cross with the figure of Christ crucified upon it.”
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ideas concerning the cross.

    When Israel made Sacrifices of the sacrificial lamb offering. And the high Priest laid the sacrificial lamb upon the wood that's upon the altar.
    In what way was the Lamb laid to Represent Christ Jesus on the cross ?
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Interesting. I did notice that the 'plain cross', was in use previous to the protestant revolution, /and also the crucifix cross. This may have been personal or geographic preference/usage.
     
    #192 Desert Snake, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I don't believe that this correlates to the op. The 'plain cross', was in usage before the crucifixion, and in christian usage is clearly specific to Jesus, not any temple sacrifice symbolism, imo.
    If that is a rhetorical question, and you are implying that the cross shouldn't be used, then I would answer to consider things like Jesus stating, 'take up your cross', and the previous cross usage, before the crucifixion, as an indication that the cross seems to have been used as a symbol for Christians, or the people following Jesus, and the similarity to a crucifixion cross may be coincidence, etc.

    The 'cross' has more than one meaning, and this could simply be a parallel usage/meaning situation.

    Even if you propose that the cross only means the crucifixion cross, you'd be wrong, so all context has to be considered imo.
     
  14. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately,following the 'revolution', the Church went into defensive mode and the result was a church closed in on itself and against the world.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Plus the church changes v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, which is a negative but also can be a positive.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    How far back can the cross be trace back to ?
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Let's see if your nit picking over semantics alters the meaning of that scripture at all....?

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ESV...."All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NET....."And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God!”

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NASB......"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

    If you are representing someone, you speak on their behalf. You become their "substitute" in spreading or disseminating their message. The use of the word "substitutes" merely conveyed the accuracy of the statement.

    If you have a public speaker who cannot fulfill an engagement for some reason, then a substitute speaker will be normally be sought rather than to cancel the engagement. Since the work Jesus commanded required those who would speak on his behalf, then I have no problem calling his brothers "substitutes". He appointed them so they are authorised to speak on his behalf.
    Storm in a teacup as usual.......
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Because we are not joining a church or group where we can just walk in or out with no responsibility, we need to know what the Bible actually teaches, as opposed to what the churches say it teaches. Since all of Jehovah's Witnesses are evangelisers, what did Jesus do before he sent his disciples out to preach? He taught them. Before he left this earth, and he sent his disciples out to preach, he told them...."Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."

    The message that was to be taken to the people had to be one unambiguous message so that there was no confusion as to what to preach to others. When Christianity was in its infancy, it was one message, and quite simple. But as the "weeds" (foretold by Jesus) grew and contaminated that what Christ had taught, it now takes some time to teach the real truth as we take people through each doctrine of the churches and show them that the Christ did not teach these things. I studied for two years before I presented myself for baptism. I needed to be fully convinced that what I was being taught was all from the Bible. I was not disappointed. Those truths shone through like beacons. One by one they were fully dismantled by the scriptures themselves and thrown away.

    For the reasons stated above, baptism in those early times was not based on sifting through false church doctrine. It was a clear case of identifying Christ as Messiah and becoming a disciple. Baptism is the start of a Christian's spiritual journey, not the end. The learning never stops.

    There is so much 'rubbish' to sift through and discard. As one who went through that process, I assure you that I checked everything out very thoroughly. I had a million questions and for every answer I had many more questions. Those answers were never forthcoming from my church. But they were easily provided by the Witnesses who took all that time to study with me. No question went unanswered from the Bible because I would not have accepted anything less. My knowledge base is now extensive so that I too can be used to answer those same questions for others. That is a great feeling and I have had the privilege of being able to do that for many people. Seeing their eyes open and their hearts fully grasp the truth is incredible. That acceptance has nothing to do with me personally, because no one can come to an understanding of the truth unless God invites them into his family. (John 6:44) We are just the facilitators of that process.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You are misunderstanding the scripture. There is more than one way to "come to life".

    The 'kings and priests' along with Jesus Christ, are bringing a world of redeemed mankind back to their original state....the physical, spiritual and moral perfection that Adam once enjoyed. Just as those to whom the good news was preached in the first century, were said to be "dead in their trespasses and sins" so the resurrected dead will take the full term of the Kingdom's rule to reach perfection and "come to life"....endless, sinless life. How do we know this? Because God would not have appointed the rulers in the kingdom to also be priests unless there were sinners for whom to intercede and to perform their priestly duties. Those raised to heavenly life are already sinless and immortal, having shed their sinful fleshly bodies to attain perfect spiritual ones. They will not need to act as kings or priests for one another, but for "mankind" resurrected back to life on earth. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

    You demonstrate such a stilted understanding of scripture, but you are not aware of how stilted it actually is. This isn't rocket science.....its just simple uncomplicated truth.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In the early days, we didn't have the knowledge that we have now. The 'sacred secret' was not revealed all at once...it was a gradual process, with added clarity moving us forward....it still is. The light on the path was supposed to get brighter...but has it ever for Christendom? You are all still stuck with Catholic doctrine adopted from paganism centuries ago.....yet you cannot see it.

    I see that you haven't addressed any of the criticisms made about your own church's teachings and practices......very telling. Have you no defense? Where are your preachers djh? You seem so focused on our beliefs that you seem to ignore the flaws in your own.....:facepalm:
     
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