I'd Like to Ask a Question or A Few Questions

[Kathryn]

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the Calvinists, because I think it's distracted from the point I was trying to make: I think what you've said so far in this thread is contradictory.

Ah. I don't believe my beliefs are contradictory.

The only reason I mentioned the Calvinists was as a side remark to point out that other Christians have resolved this particular contradiction, but to do it, they assert beliefs that aren't compatible with what you've said here.

I understand their perspective - I was raised in a Calvinist household. But over time and via study, life experiences, etc. I have rejected some of the beliefs of Calvinism.

No surprise though, that different sects of Christianity have reached different conclusions.

I didn't mean "what's your source?"; I meant "how do you resolve the conflict?"

I don't have a conflict.

So God's will being carried is continent on human decisions. This goes back to what I mentioned before: what you're arguing implies that God is not fully sovereign.

God uses people to accomplish His will at times. We are conduits of His grace - or can be. We can also choose not to be. At the same time, God's power can draw us to Him even while we fight against it.

I'm OK with that. After all, I've experienced human love and grace and it often works the same way. It's not that hard for me to understand or live with that concept.

Sorry - my mistake. When you mentioned them one after the other, I inferred a link between them. Bad assumption on my part. Re-reading your post, I see you didn't actually say what I thought you were trying to imply.

No problem - I do it pretty often myself here. It's refreshing to see someone who is able to admit when they've misread something rather than trying to continue to torture a mistaken point!

So... at the end, your response to any contradictions you can't eliminate is to say that you're okay with them, because you assume they'll be resolved somehow?

I continue to seek wisdom - not understanding something fully doesn't mean I just throw my hands in the air and say, "It's a great mystery! Who could know?" That being said, there is so much wisdom and knowledge "out there" that I am willing to pace myself in acquiring it - we have to. We have lives to live daily.

I like this diagram:

Replace the words in this diagram like this:

Small circle - "What I know."

Medium circle - "What humans know."

Large circle - "What God knows." Actually, there isn't even a circle in my opinion that could hold what God knows, but maybe you get my point.

Hope this helps you understand my position a bit better.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Replace the words in this diagram like this:

Small circle - "What I know."

Medium circle - "What humans know."

Large circle - "What God knows." Actually, there isn't even a circle in my opinion that could hold what God knows, but maybe you get my point.

Hope this helps you understand my position a bit better.

Kinda sorta, but I think your diagram helps to illustrate my point about the contradiction: no one idea can be simultaneously inside the small circle and not inside it.

When you say that we're worthy of God's grace and love, this puts the idea "God should bestow grace on all of us" inside the small circle. But when we talk about God's treatment of people in the afterlife and I ask why God doesn't bestow grace on everyone, you respond with something like "it's a mystery"... i.e. by putting the question of "should God bestow grace on all of us?" in the big circle of things only God knows.

That's the contradiction I see here. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that there are things that human beings don't know; what I'm not fine with is the idea that we can speak intelligently (or at all) about the things human beings don't know.

 

[waitasec]

for me,
the small circle is: 'i don't know'
the medium circle is: i know even less
and the larger one: i know i don't know

 

[Copernicus]

Kathryn, I saw the same contradiction in your discussion that 9-10ths_Penguin did. You still retain the idea that God judges people for their behavior and that he levies some kind of eternal penalty after one crosses the threshhold of death, even if it isn't eternal torture. Basically, you believe in a kind of "soft hell". How can you acquire a belief one way or the other, if such knowledge is what you call a "known unknown?" (We really need to consult St. Rumsfeld on such matters.)

 

[Copernicus]

I had a whole spiel written by deleted it. Some points: I know very well that almost all atheists on the RF DO NOT dislike me. I also know that there are people of other faiths that hate my faith or me (and others) just for following (which is even more distressing).

Suffice it to say that I am feeling irritable today because there is one person who seems to think I hate him or her- not in so many words- because of a verse he/she read in the Bible and other reasons. And there is another who constantly attacks every post I make- makes fun of everything I post. And a third who posts hysterical laughing smilies at some of the theists' posts here, including mine, and that is really humiliating (I shouldn't be humiliated, but I guess I can't help it).

Then I think that your OP should have been about people who have been behaving badly. Instead, you seemed to link their attitude to the fact that they were atheists. The fact is that you get a wide range of behavior from all groups on the internet. There are atheists who are biased against Christians in the same sense that there are Democrats who are biased against Republicans. On the internet, you get much less sociably behavior than if you discussed the same subject face-to-face with those people. The anonymity of the internet has that effect on discussion groups like this.

One last point: Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I hate any atheist or any person of any other faith or religion that is different than mine.

Why would you expect me to think otherwise?

 

[darkendless]

I can't remember the last time someone knocked on my door proselytizing, and I live smack dab in the middle of the bible belt. Honestly, it has to be at least 20 years ago, maybe even more. And they were Jehovah's Witnesses. JW's are, in fact, the only group who have ever knocked on my door trying to recruit people.

I also can't remember the last time someone was disrespectful of my faith, in real life (though I see tons of disrespect toward my faith online -especially on this forum).

In real life, I have yet to see a Christian be disrespectful to an atheist for that matter. I know several atheists, who are known to be atheists, and I've never witnessed anyone being rude to them.

I know a pretty large number of Muslims. When 9/11 happened, our community rallied around them in a very protective mode. I never witnessed anyone being rude to them either.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because of course it does. I'm just saying that it's not common around here (small town in east Texas) to be rude to people based on their religious beliefs.

Well its not that they're rude, they're just disrespectful to my religious beliefs by assuming I need their help to find 'salvation.'

It really offends me to have them come to my house. On the Gold Coast we get a variety, Christians, Mormomns and JW's. I dislike having to ask them to leave by being blunt towards them, its an awkward position they put me in.

 

[ChristineES]

And you´d be wrong.

I hope you're not saying that every atheist is nice and kind. While most people I have met, including atheists, theists and agnostics, are nice and kind, there are some that are not nice at all- whether they have a religion or don't have a religion, whether they believe in God or whether they don't.

Unkindness is an individual thing, not something that pertains to an entire group.

 

[ChristineES]

Well its not that they're rude, they're just disrespectful to my religious beliefs by assuming I need their help to find 'salvation.'

It really offends me to have them come to my house. On the Gold Coast we get a variety, Christians, Mormomns and JW's. I dislike having to ask them to leave by being blunt towards them, its an awkward position they put me in.

I try to cut them some slack. They are told they need to go door to door. I studied with the JWs for awhile and they are told that they need to do it. I usually don't open the door when I see them there, which might be considered rude, but I also feel a little awkward when they talk to me. Last Christmas I spoke to one who was absolutely sure I knew nothing about the Bible and when I had my own bible, I could tell that she didn't like my translations. She was a bit rude to me, too. She was an exception, though, as most JWs are very polite (out of the ones I've known).

 

[Songbird]

I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question. It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

I hope I am wrong about it, really. There are a lot of good things about the Christian faith. There are a lot of Good people who follow the Christian faith. I am not going to say that just because someone is a Christian means that they are good people. I wouldn't say that anymore than I would say that atheists are bad just because they are atheists. I dislike generalizations and stereotypes.

There are definitely some Christians I don't like, but I know far more Christians than people of any other belief, so I think it's just statistics. My husband is a pastor, and I run into some very needy and bizarre people in the church world. It sometimes makes me think Christianity is comprised mostly of off-balance folks, but the truth is the healthy people tend not to make a lot of noise, so I don't notice them.

And I occasionally conflate Christianity as a whole with the cultish version I grew up with. On the whole, I love all my Christian friends, though, and we can talk about most things with a level of comfort. It has surprised me how many of them freak out that I deconverted....but that's another story.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm perfectly fine with the idea that there are things that human beings don't know; what I'm not fine with is the idea that we can speak intelligently (or at all) about the things human beings don't know.

Well, amen to that.

Another word for that would be "mystery."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, amen to that.

Another word for that would be "mystery."

So should God bestow grace on all people?

So far, with your responses, you've answered this question with both "it's a mystery" and "yes". Which is it?

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, I saw the same contradiction in your discussion that 9-10ths_Penguin did. You still retain the idea that God judges people for their behavior and that he levies some kind of eternal penalty after one crosses the threshhold of death, even if it isn't eternal torture. Basically, you believe in a kind of "soft hell". How can you acquire a belief one way or the other, if such knowledge is what you call a "known unknown?" (We really need to consult St. Rumsfeld on such matters.)

What you see as a contradiction I see as an unknown - period. You are trying to apply human reasoning to concepts that are far above what we know (ie, at the very least -the known unknown).

It's not that we shouldn't ponder these things. I think that where we differ is that I've pondered them and accepted some concepts on faith. Not blind faith, but faith in God - and in the concept that I will not ever understand everything while in human form on this earth (if ever). And I'm OK with that. Not complacent - acquiring wisdom and knowledge are a passion of mine. But I don't get frustrated when I don't understand everything.

 

[blackout]

It is FAR less important to me 'what' people are
than Who they are.

(ie, I'm more interested in the Person, than the label.
Labels alone tell you almost nothing at all.)

 

[blackout]

I like this diagram:

Replace the words in this diagram like this:

Small circle - "What I know."

Medium circle - "What humans know."

Large circle - "What God knows." Actually, there isn't even a circle in my opinion that could hold what God knows, but maybe you get my point.

Hope this helps you understand my position a bit better.

I like the diagram.

I see it more though as

what you know.
what you know you don't know.
what you don't know that you don't know.

 

[Kathryn]

I like the diagram.

I see it more though as

what you know.
what you know you don't know.
what you don't know that you don't know.

LOL yes that works too!

 

[ChristineES]

It is FAR less important to me 'what' people are
than Who they are.

(ie, I'm more interested in the Person, than the label.
Labels alone tell you almost nothing at all.)

Me, too. People are much more complicated than their faith, their "ethnic group", etc.

 

[blackout]

Me, too. People are much more complicated than their faith, their "ethnic group", etc.

And sometimes they are much less complicated.

 

[SageTree]

I suppose the major question is do a few people generalize all Christians as fundamentalist bigots?

When I try to express my experiences and encounters with Jesus, The Christ and God I often encounter these people calling me an oculist, a new ager,

and on RF almost completely blowing me off to the point where I don't even try to participate in the Christian DIR anymore.

 

[blackout]

When I try to express my experiences and encounters with Jesus, The Christ and God I often encounter these people calling me an oculist, a new ager,

and on RF almost completely blowing me off to the point where I don't even try to participate in the Christian DIR anymore.

I've read enough of your posts to say that I used to be in a situation notably similar to yours.

Finally I just ditched the "Christian" label.
It was far more trouble than it was worth.

Anyway, it's much more fun being Purple.

 

[Me Myself]

I thought not being a "christian" might be my place in some time in life, but when I entered this forum and saw people taking Jesus´s words in way I found completely ...off, I just felt I was still very emotionaly involved to Jesus to not call me Christian.

I mean, I pray less often to him than to God directly or other practices, but guess this forum helped me find out I am very mucha christian.

It still feels so off so many times because my comprehension of him is so far of of what the mainstream says. : /