I'd Like to Ask a Question or A Few Questions

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Christian beliefs that I adhere to teach that all humans are made in the image of God and are equally worthy of not only His love and grace, but our respect.

I've seen Christian denominations that pay lip-service to this idea, but I don't think they fully put it into practice... or at least, they hold beliefs that are contrary to it.

If humans are innately worthy of God's love and grace, then this means that God would be morally compelled to treat us with some sort of special regard. We wouldn't be the "pots" that the "potter" can do with as he pleases, as the Bible describes us.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Gandhi even disliked Christians.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time." - Gandhi.


I honestly do not mind Christians. In fact, I don't mind anyone as long as they're nice to be I'll be nice to them.

 

[waitasec]

Why not use common sense when you're reading a book? Any book.

Bad behavior has been justified by all sorts of books. Common sense and kindness, and the Golden Rule (as found in many belief systems, not just Christianity) will carry one a very long way regardless of what book you're reading.

ain't that the truth...

one wonders why any religion is subjected to common sense or the internal moral compass one already holds while it's being placed on a pedestal as a beacon for common sense and morality

 

[Tristesse]

Why not use common sense when you're reading a book? Any book.

Bad behavior has been justified by all sorts of books. Common sense and kindness, and the Golden Rule (as found in many belief systems, not just Christianity) will carry one a very long way regardless of what book you're reading.

Because if you actually have the belief that this book was inspired by a diety, and this deity also condones bad behaviour, and you also hold the belief that this deity is a just and moral god, then you end up making all kinds of rationalizations for bad behaviour. We have to cut it off at the root source, and that would be the book that allows for bad behaviour masquerading as morally correct behavoiur.

 

[Kathryn]

I've seen Christian denominations that pay lip-service to this idea, but I don't think they fully put it into practice... or at least, they hold beliefs that are contrary to it.

Apparently our life experiences differ significantly. Which proves nothing either way, but makes for some interesting discussions I guess.

 

[idav]

I think there are other belittling ideas in Christianity. IMO, the idea that the worth of all things is bestowed by God is a very common precept in Christianity, and it contradict the idea that things (such as people) have inherent worth in their own rights.

I also think that trust in God to meet the needs of humanity is a very common Christian precept, and I think this suggests that we don't need to solve our problems for ourselves.

In fact, I think many Christian denominations go a step beyond this and preach that we're living in a condemned, fallen, decaying world, and that trying to fix it isn't only unnecessary, but actually futile.

IMO, even when we set aside questions like whether Hell is fiery torment or "separation from God", or whether God does or doesn't hate gay people, there are some profoundly negative things that are at the core of almost every form of Christianity I've ever encountered.

That is the largely the mentality around here for mainstream Christians. I don't really agree with that interpretation just like Gandhi says "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your christians are so unlike your christ.".

edit: didn't notice somebody posted the quote but I agree anyhow

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Apparently our life experiences differ significantly. Which proves nothing either way, but makes for some interesting discussions I guess.

I've yet to meet a Christian who's told me that they believe in a God that is less than fully sovereign. If you're saying that this is what you believe, then you'll be the first one I've ever encountered.

Edit: it's not really my life experiences that are informing my opinion here, though: it's my reading of the Bible. Look at a book like Job, where the overall message is, IMO, "God's entitled to whatever he wants to you, so don't question what he does." If you're right and human beings are innately worthy of respect, love and grace, then this idea is flat-out wrong; God's not entitled to do whatever he wants to us.

 

[Kathryn]

Because if you actually have the belief that this book was inspired by a diety, and this deity also condones bad behaviour, and you also hold the belief that this deity is a just and moral god, then you end up making all kinds of rationalizations for bad behaviour. We have to cut it off at the root source, and that would be the book that allows for bad behaviour masquerading as morally correct behavoiur.

I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and His disciples. I can't find anything that I disagree with in those teachings, which have positively impacted my life and the lives of others around me.

 

[Tristesse]

I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and His disciples. I can't find anything that I disagree with in those teachings, which have positively impacted my life and the lives of others around me.

Ok, do you subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torture for finite crimes? If so, I not only disagree with that, but I find it repugnant and immoral. Particularly if this is wisdom from a god who also claims to have moral highground.

 

[Kathryn]

Ok, do you subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torture for finite crimes? If so, I not only disagree with that, but I find it repugnant and immoral. Particularly if this is wisdom from a god who also claims to have moral highground.

I subscribe to the doctrine that hell is eternal separation from God. I subscribe to the concept that God is infinitely wise and holy and that it is His place to judge individuals, not ours.

 

[Tristesse]

I subscribe to the doctrine that hell is eternal separation from God. I subscribe to the concept that God is infinitely wise and holy and that it is His place to judge individuals, not ours.

Eternal seperation? What do you mean by that? We'll just be seperated and there's no torture involved? As an atheist do you think That god will send me to hell?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I subscribe to the doctrine that hell is eternal separation from God. I subscribe to the concept that God is infinitely wise and holy and that it is His place to judge individuals, not ours.

I think this contradicts what you said earlier:

The Christian beliefs that I adhere to teach that all humans are made in the image of God and are equally worthy of not only His love and grace, but our respect.

When I take your two statements together, I get something like "all people are worthy of God's grace, but God is entitled to deny that grace to people when he chooses."

I think this is why the Calvinists came up with the doctrine of "total depravity": if we have no worth at all, then there's no logical contradiction when God damns us (whether "damning" means fiery torment or simply withholding divine grace). It's a cruel belief, IMO, but logically consistent.

 

[Kathryn]

Eternal seperation? What do you mean by that? We'll just be seperated and there's no torture involved? As an atheist do you think That god will send me to hell?

I have no idea what the eternal destination of your soul is. That's between you and God.

I also don't have the answers you're looking for regarding heaven or hell. As a Christian, I know that I want to spend my eternity in the presence of God, and that Heaven sounds like a great place to me. Christianity has enriched my life here on earth and I look forward to eternity as well.

You do whatever you feel is best for you.

 

[Kathryn]

I think this contradicts what you said earlier:



When I take your two statements together, I get something like "all people are worthy of God's grace, but God is entitled to deny that grace to people when he chooses."

I think this is why the Calvinists came up with the doctrine of "total depravity": if we have no worth at all, then there's no logical contradiction when God damns us (whether "damning" means fiery torment or simply withholding divine grace). It's a cruel belief, IMO, but logically consistent.

I'm not a Calvinist. In fact, I specifically renounce Calvinist beliefs regarding predestination.

I believe that our eternal "options" if you will are a mixture of personal choice and predestination, and that we do not understand how the two work together because of the limitations of our mind's ability to grasp God's profound and infinite wisdom and holiness.

That's why I work out my own salvation on a daily basis, and don't judge others. Salvation is extremely personal in my opinion and between each individual and God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not a Calvinist. In fact, I specifically renounce Calvinist beliefs regarding predestination.

Right... but then you also don't have the solution they've come up with for the logical contradiction available to you here.

I believe that our eternal "options" if you will are a mixture of personal choice and predestination, and that we do not understand how the two work together because of the limitations of our mind's ability to grasp God's profound and infinite wisdom and holiness.

That's why I work out my own salvation on a daily basis, and don't judge others. Salvation is extremely personal in my opinion and between each individual and God.

I just see an inherent contradiction in what you're saying: if it's okay for God to do what he pleases with a person after death, what basis do you have to say that the same person is "worthy" of anything before his death?

I mean, regardless of our understand of God's thought processes behind how he decides who to bestow his grace on or not, how does God denying his grace to some people (through "separation from God", for instance) not contradict the idea that all people are worthy of God's grace?

... and you said that we're worthy of that grace because we're made in the "image of God". Are the people who end up "separated from God" not made in the "image of God"?

 

[Katzpur]

I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question. It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

I hope I am wrong about it, really. There are a lot of good things about the Christian faith. There are a lot of Good people who follow the Christian faith. I am not going to say that just because someone is a Christian means that they are good people. I wouldn't say that anymore than I would say that atheists are bad just because they are atheists. I dislike generalizations and stereotypes.

Actually, Christine, I think most people (excluding those who are just flat out anti-religion in general) don't have anything against Christian teachings. They may even greatly admire Jesus Christ. They just don't like the judgmental attitude they see in so many Christians, and are quick to generalize that all Christians are like this.

 

[Kathryn]

Right... but then you also don't have the solution they've come up with for the logical contradiction available to you here.

What?

Sorry, maybe I'm dense but I don't understand that comment. I don't have a solution because I don't believe their position is logical, nor does it line up with my own personal belief system. The Calvinist position doesn't dignify human life in my opinion nor does it fully address the concept of grace.

I just see an inherent contradiction in what you're saying: if it's okay for God to do what he pleases with a person after death, what basis do you have to say that the same person is "worthy" of anything before his death?

I base this belief on the teachings of Jesus Christ and His disciples as portrayed in the New Testament.

I mean, regardless of our understand of God's thought processes behind how he decides who to bestow his grace on or not, how does God denying his grace to some people (through "separation from God", for instance) not contradict the idea that all people are worthy of God's grace?

Grace, while freely given, must also be accepted.

... and you said that we're worthy of that grace because we're made in the "image of God". Are the people who end up "separated from God" not made in the "image of God"?

First of all, I didn't say that we are all worthy of grace simply because we are made in the image of God.

God's grace is sufficient for all, but all do not accept it. But - here's my caveat on that subject:

I believe that God is bigger than any box we try to contain Him/Her in. In other words, God is bigger than any of our religions or our ideas. I think we're all in for some surprises when it comes to eternity and who and where we and others will spend that eternity.

And I'm OK with that. I do what I can where I am and I have faith in God's infinite wisdom and grace.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What?

Sorry, maybe I'm dense but I don't understand that comment. I don't have a solution because I don't believe their position is logical, nor does it line up with my own personal belief system. The Calvinist position doesn't dignify human life in my opinion nor does it fully address the concept of grace.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the Calvinists, because I think it's distracted from the point I was trying to make: I think what you've said so far in this thread is contradictory.

The only reason I mentioned the Calvinists was as a side remark to point out that other Christians have resolved this particular contradiction, but to do it, they assert beliefs that aren't compatible with what you've said here.

I base this belief on the teachings of Jesus Christ and His disciples as portrayed in the New Testament.

I didn't mean "what's your source?"; I meant "how do you resolve the conflict?"

Grace, while freely given, must also be accepted.

So God's will being carried is continent on human decisions. This goes back to what I mentioned before: what you're arguing implies that God is not fully sovereign.

First of all, I didn't say that we are all worthy of grace simply because we are made in the image of God.

Sorry - my mistake. When you mentioned them one after the other, I inferred a link between them. Bad assumption on my part. Re-reading your post, I see you didn't actually say what I thought you were trying to imply.

God's grace is sufficient for all, but all do not accept it. But - here's my caveat on that subject:

I believe that God is bigger than any box we try to contain Him/Her in. In other words, God is bigger than any of our religions or our ideas. I think we're all in for some surprises when it comes to eternity and who and where we and others will spend that eternity.

And I'm OK with that. I do what I can where I am and I have faith in God's infinite wisdom and grace.

So... at the end, your response to any contradictions you can't eliminate is to say that you're okay with them, because you assume they'll be resolved somehow?

 

[Renji]

Hell is supposedly a place for the devil and his angels. As my Faith taught, if we go sinning, we actually build a wall which hinders the grace (and love) that comes from God. Making the soul die, and have the same fate with S.'s angels, which, he eventually want to happen.

 

[waitasec]

I subscribe to the doctrine that hell is eternal separation from God. I subscribe to the concept that God is infinitely wise and holy and that it is His place to judge individuals, not ours.

as far as i'm concerned...
heaven would cease to be heaven if one of my loved ones didn't make it.