I think I am now an atheist

[Eddi]

May you please elaborate? It is not entirely clear what you mean here.

I (and certainly many others) am self-consciously practicing Atheism as a belief system

Or should I say a disbelief system????

Or at least have a belief system which is strongly Atheistic to the extent that it may be defined by its Atheism

Therefore: Atheism is a belief system - because people (like me) make it a part of their belief system and may even call their belief system "Atheism" (although I don't do this)

Regardless of what others say it is clearly practiced by many as a belief system therefore it is reasonable to classify it as a belief system....

or disbelief system

 

[Brian2]

I see this come from theists misrepresenting atheists more than atheists themselves. I have seen a few sloppy comments from atheists, but that is just sloppy language use. We don't believe that Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. We simply don't believe they are real.

Are you saying that there are heretical atheists who need to be educated better about what real atheism means?

Some theists try to switch the burden of proof by accusing atheists of having a belief in something they can't prove, which is a fallacy anyway because we can't prove negatives.

Yes we all know that you can't prove anything and that theists also cannot. But that of course shows that it is not a matter of proofs anyway, it is going past proofs to faith.

The odd thing is that these theists are attacking atheist's belief, and don't seem to realize that if atheists are wrong in their belief then theists can be wrong in their belief. So theists, be careful not to attack belief..

It is not theists that attack the concept of belief.

Belief in the nonexistence of things not known to exist is absurd. It's quite Rube Goldberg thinking..

I had to look up Rube Goldberg. So you seem to be saying that Occam's Razor shows that God/s are not needed. But Occam's Razor does not show anything.

Really? I haven't seen any evidence for any gods. There actually was a person the Santa legend was built on. And Santa is a mortal, after all, and we know mortals exist. Apart from a flying sleigh and a fat man getting down chimneys, it is all plausible for Santa to exist, unlike gods.

Well of course YOU say that all evidence for god/s is not really evidence. And you are prepared to believe in a Santa as long as there is nothing to it that verges on the supernatural. But that shows things about you and not about Santa.

 

[Brian2]

Most people have a very poor understanding of what qualifies as evidence.

And a faith based belief is the opposite of a justified belief.

It appears that you could not support that claim.

Faith based belief is not the opposite to a justified belief. Many people believe things that have not been proven. They probably have not left their reasoning behind in doing that, they just go beyond what has been proven to an opinion either way on a subject. This holds for atheists also of course.

 

[LuisDantas]

I (and certainly many others) am self-consciously practicing Atheism as a belief system

Or should I say a disbelief system????

Or at least have a belief system which is strongly Atheistic to the extent that it may be defined by its Atheism

Is that so? I wonder how that works.

Therefore: Atheism is a belief system - because people (like me) make it a part of their belief system and may even call their belief system "Atheism" (although I don't do this)

Regardless of what others say it is clearly practiced by many as a belief system therefore it is reasonable to classify it as a belief system....

or disbelief system

 

[Eddi]

Is that so?

When I was a teenager I described myself as an "Atheist" and advocated a position I called "Atheism"

This was an instance of Atheism being someone's belief system

And hardly an isolated instance either...

Therefore Atheism can be a person's belief system

Whether you like it or not

 

[Alien826]

I enjoy not collecting stamps almost as much as I enjoy baiting Atheists.
But the latter is getting boring and predictable.
I thought Eddi's response was thoughtful and careful not to inflame debate, but maybe he has things to learn about his new belief system and I'm sure you can teach him the ways of atheists, at least from your pov even if not all atheists are like you and generalising about atheism as not being a belief is probably not a good thing to do just as generalising about atheism being a belief is not right either.

"Atheist" describes a person who has does not believe there are any gods. That said, atheists are all over the map in other ways. Here are a few.

- They never think about gods at all.
- They have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion there are no gods but don't feel the need to get all emotional about it.
- They dislike religion for one reason or another and spend a lot of time attacking it.
- They debate with theists because they enjoy debate. (That's me).

This argument about atheism being a belief is a very old one. It's what I call a "copy and paste" subject. You may not find it has much left in it, @Brian2, if you are trying to stir it up again.

Eddi seems to be someone who just wants to tell us about his life, without trying to convince anyone of anything. A rare bird indeed. I like him. His new found (or rediscovered) atheism is a separate subject from his "sim" ideas, as it should be as there is nothing supernatural about the "sim" hypothesis. All elements of it are material.

 

[Revoltingest]

I now realise that the only reason I ever made myself believe in God was out of fear of death and annihilation

Wishful thinking basically

I now see no compelling reason to believe in God

Therefore I think I'm going to have to come out as an atheist

Which is what I was for many years

Although I hope there is a God and recognise there is a slim chance of one existing

I still believe reality is a computer simulation though

Welcome to the club!
We have...
- No dues
- No initiation ritual
- No prohibition against leaving
- No studying
- No magic underwear or special hats
- No dietary proscriptions

But we do have a secret handshake.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Grr, beat me to it!

Looks like you need some new material

 

[F1fan]

Are you saying that there are heretical atheists who need to be educated better about what real atheism means?

Irrelevant and absurd question.

Yes we all know that you can't prove anything and that theists also cannot. But that of course shows that it is not a matter of proofs anyway, it is going past proofs to faith.

In logic and debate and given idea is by default UNTRUE until it can be shown to be true, or likely true, with adequate and valid evidence.

That god is a common belief in human civilization and development does not imply the ideas are true. Social and biological science explain that social norms, like religious beliefs, were crucial in human evolution as these abstractions helped tribal cohesion and trust, and that meant survival.

It is not theists that attack the concept of belief.

You do when you claim that atheists BELIEVE go gods exist, and you say this in contract to theists BELIEVING some sort of god exists, and imply that atheists must be the ones who are wrong. This is flawed thinking all the way through. It's a desperation tactic because theists can't demonstrate what they firmly believe has any basis in reality.

I had to look up Rube Goldberg. So you seem to be saying that Occam's Razor shows that God/s are not needed. But Occam's Razor does not show anything.

Religious beliefs in the modern era are quite irrelevant to explaining the way things are. These beliefs are cultural artifacts of the past. Many are quite complex, and in their complexity invalidate themselves. Look at the whole noting of salvation, and the Jesus sacrifice, it is overly complex and absurd if taken literally. It most certainly isn't true. Not only is there no evidence for it, it is absurd. If Christianity taught salvation as a metaphor it would actually be workable as a lesson.

Well of course YOU say that all evidence for god/s is not really evidence. And you are prepared to believe in a Santa as long as there is nothing to it that verges on the supernatural. But that shows things about you and not about Santa.

Feel free to present valid evidence that your religious are rational and useful in a debate. I am willing to bet you will refuse this challenge, and your comment above is just a bluff.

If I'm wrong and you are right, prove it.

 

[YoursTrue]

He already told Eve through Adam that she should not do that, otherwise she would die. She was created as an adult in a beautiful place. Yet she wanted more. The freedom to make her own decisions about what was good and bad. And because she did what God told her not to do, she lived for a while and then she died. She did have children, though.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I now realise that the only reason I ever made myself believe in God was out of fear of death and annihilation

Apparently, you've overcome that. Atheism is a great liberator from the fears and false hopes that religions like Christianity impose on their adherents, such as the one you just alluded to. If you had never heard of gods, you would have matured without any need for them, and eventually wound up where the typical humanist does. He is fine with the possibility of the universe being godless and death being the permanent extinction of consciousness. He's comfortable not believing that somebody is watching over him or answering prayers, or that he is loved by anyone or anything other than those around him.

Religions like Christianity would rather that you focused on an imagined celestial psychodrama of God and Satan and angels and demons and hellfire and to burden yourself with baseless guilt and morbid fear of eternal damnation. That's what it seems happened to you, although you appear to be digging out of that cocoon. It depicts earthly life as a grubby thing to be transcended because it wants you disconnected from the planet that gives you life – to feel that you’re apart from nature, not a part of nature. They want you rootless, uncertain, susceptible, while they hold out the promise of eternal salvation – access to the kingdom of heaven, no less – but only through them. As if they control the only bridge over the chasm of hellfire. It's a psychological Chinese finger trap of sorts. Atheism liberates one from this kind of psychological terrorism:

"As an atheist, having a Christian threaten me with hell is like having a hippie threaten to punch me in my aura." - Josh Thomas

I now see no compelling reason to believe in God. Therefore I think I'm going to have to come out as an atheist

You meet my definition of an atheist as you are - anyone with no god belief. Good luck in your search for a coherent belief system.

I believe that whoever programmed The Projection (which is what I call the simulation) came into existence through sexual reproduction between beings who evolved from more primative lifeforms in an apparently Godless universe that apparently started with some kind of "big bang"

That's a wild speculation, but because it's naturalistic, it is orders of magnitude more likely to be correct than supernaturalistic explanations, which require unseen realms populated by unseen and fantastical creatures. I like to point out to creationists that even were the theory of evolution overturned tomorrow by a falsifying find, which would suggest that a deceptive intelligent designer assembled all of that data currently propping up the theory to make it appear as if naturalistic evolution on earth from a common ancestor had occurred when it hadn't. Gods are still not the likely answer. Creatures like the ones you imaging are - naturalistically arising extraterrestrials.

Except that Atheists expand huge quantities of time and effort arguing against Theism

Not really. I argue against belief by faith, which is not limited to theism. We see it in the climate deniers as the world burns and storms. We see it in the anti-vaxxers as hundreds of thousands suffer or die needlessly. We see it in the election hoax chanters and the insurrectionists that believed Trump by faith many of whom are now in prison or headed there. And we also see it in religion, as Christians impose their religion on uninterested women and to their great detriment based in faith that this is what Jesus wants.

Part of arguing against belief by faith is making the case for critical thought and empiricism as the only paths to knowledge. It also involves critiquing fallacious theistic arguments, but not because they're theistic, but because they're fallacious.

I also argue against theocratic incursions into the lives of unbelievers, not their theism. It really doesn't matter what people believe, just how they behave. If my neighbor likes to go out at midnight dancing around a tree while shaking a stick with a bloody chicken claw nailed to it at some imagined god or gods while baying at the full moon, I say go for it, as long as he keeps the noise down. I certainly wouldn't try to talk him out of beliefs, because they don't matter except to him.

In my view, you might just as well keep believing in God or gods, in that case, since there's no difference in the amount of evidence you can find for either.

I see your point, but I'd say Eddi is a lot better off avoiding a god belief.

Atheism is a form of belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I have a nice collection of these you and others might enjoy. It starts with the best known example:

• Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
• Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.
• Atheism is a religion like transparent is a color
• Atheism is a religion like health is a disease state.
• Atheism is a religion like death is a lifestyle.
• Atheism is a religion like nonsmoking is a habit.
• Atheism is a religion like fasting is a menu entree.
• Atheism is a religion like unemployment is a career choice.
• Atheism is a religion like nudity is a fashion style.
• Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position.
• Atheism is a religion like off is a radio station and silence a song playing on it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

do you think that atheism is a belief just like theism is?

No, but I also don't consider theism a belief system. It is a class of belief systems that need have nothing more in common than a god belief, just as atheists need have nothing more in common than no god belief. Whatever else a theist or atheist believes comes from elsewhere. For the theist, that's a book and a pulpit. For the atheist, that's usually the same principle that brought him to atheism just described applied to the subject of gods. Apply the same principles to political philosophy and we come up with the modern, liberal, secular, egalitarian, democratic state with guaranteed personal rights. Apply the same principles to epistemology and one replaces effete faith-based systems like astrology and creationism with science. And put it all together into a single worldview and one arrives at humanism, a philosophy based in reason, empiricism, and empathy.

Atheism isn't a system of beliefs, but it is the sound conclusion of reason applied to two beliefs, namely, the belief that ideas need to be sufficiently justified according to the tenets of critical analysis before being believed, and the belief that no such evidence exists for gods. Atheism generates no new beliefs of its own. As indicated, those come from elsewhere.

Nobody can say they know that life did not need at least one of those imaginary gods to get started.

Agreed. Also, nobody should believe that life required a god

what science knows from observation is that life comes from previously existing life.

Nobody can say that they know that life didn't originate from nonlife. You might not realize it yet, but creationists also believe that it did. They believe that God is the source of life in the universe. That's life coming from nonlife right there unless they consider a disembodied consciousness life, in which case that spirit is life that didn't come from other life.

I have heard some atheists claim that they have a belief that there are no gods.

They don't define atheism. They are a subset of atheism. Most atheists are agnostic on gods, since they understand the limits of knowledge in this area. It is presently impossible to rule the existence of gods in or out, which is grounds for belief among theists, but grounds for unbelief among skeptics, who need more before believing.

If God were so easy to find, believe in, and understand, He would not have allowed the serpent to turn Eve's mind around. God wasn't standing there when the serpent tempted Eve, telling her at that moment, "No! Don't do that!" Even if He had been, she might not have believed God. Yet He exacted the penalty.

Humanism rejects this and considers it unethical. If I were to invent a god, it would have my values, too, but not those. These are the values of the abusive, malevolent parent setting its child up for failure and then punishing it for so doing.

You might find this of interest. It was written by a man named Richard Banford:

"Do you know [my god's] name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists.

"My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply.

"My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day.

"When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit.

"When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books.

"When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them.

"When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers.

"While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well.

"When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it.

"While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man.

"When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit.

"When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible.

"While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential.

"While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life.

"While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all.

"While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself.

"When your god says "Thou shalt not," my god says "You can do anything."

"My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do."​

 

[firedragon]

I now realise that the only reason I ever made myself believe in God was out of fear of death and annihilation

Wishful thinking basically

I now see no compelling reason to believe in God

Therefore I think I'm going to have to come out as an atheist

Which is what I was for many years

Although I hope there is a God and recognise there is a slim chance of one existing

I still believe reality is a computer simulation though

How could someone believe in God in fear of death and what ever annihilation is to that person? I really can't understand.

So you fear death and annihilation, and you believe in God because of it?

It does not make any sense to me. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[firedragon]

No!

By "slim" I mean only very slight

Possible but not at all probable

Why is not probable? Due to what?

 

[Eddi]

Why is not probable? Due to what?

Due to alternative explanations being more convincing to me

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But yes, as you say, you cannot know such a thing even though there is more evidence for a God than for Santa Claus and the Great Green Arkleseizure imo.

"Much more evidence?" Then why not present it? (Bearing in mind that it should actually BE evidence. Somebody writing something out of their head and calling it scripture doesn't make it any more true than what Tolkien or Rowling wrote.)

 

[Eddi]

How could someone believe in God in fear of death and what ever annihilation is to that person? I really can't understand.

So you fear death and annihilation, and you believe in God because of it?

It does not make any sense to me. Maybe I am missing something.

What I mean is, after much introspection I came to see that for me a belief in God was a defence mechanism for my fear of death as a belief in God alleviates fear of annihilation after death

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's a wild speculation, but because it's naturalistic, it is orders of magnitude more likely to be correct than supernaturalistic explanations, which require unseen realms populated by unseen and fantastical creatures.

Something I'd like to add here, to help clarify this tendency to compare the likelihood of various speculations: 1 chance in 10^^8 is two orders of magnitude smaller than 1 chance in 10^^10 -- and yet both are extremely unlikely.

It's only when the chances of things are much closer to numbers we can grasp that we ought to pay too much attention. When I had my spine surgery, I was told I had a 3% chance of a tear in the dura resulting in a spinal fluid leak. Well, that's like saying 1 chance in 33 (which is more than 10 orders of magnitude more likely than 1 in 10^^10), and it happened. Ooohhhh, the headache that caused.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A belief in the profound and glaring absence of any credible evidence for there being a Supreme Being

More like 'a belief' than a system of anything.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Before I started believing in God my atheism was a big part of who I was (and I think it is for others too) and I invested substantial energy into it

But of course that's just me

Yup, it is.
There are a lot of atheists in Australia. We've even had an atheist PM. Yet marriage equality was late here (later than the US, or Ireland), precisely because of the high levels of apathy here around any serious consideration of religion...or the lack thereof.