I have a feeling that the afterlife doesn't exist

[Spice]

So here I go. Firstly, reading the writings of Origen of Alexandria probably influenced me a great deal. However, he was conflicted over reincarnation. Most know that the eastern religions have believed in reincarnation for millennia. And Plato wrote his views on his belief in reincarnation centuries before Christ's ministry. The Bible shows strikng evidence that Jesus and his disciples took reincarnation as fact. Even in the early Christian Church Valentinus and Basilides believed, but Justin Martyr did not.

In the 6th century the church rejected reincarnation because it contradicts the doctrine of corporeal resurrection and undermines Christ's redemptive sacrifices. That's not an issue for me personally as I feel it does Christ an injustice to believe he wiped our slates clean with his death. I feel his life was much more important for he proved we can can reach perfection and be resurrected and return home.

I'm interested in knowing your personal interpretation of the following scriptures. I'm addressing this post specifically to you because I'd like to know your thoughts on them. I decided to address you directly because I'm already aware of how a couple of others in this discussion interpret the Bible, so I'm not interested in hearing from them. I won't name names, but I have never agreed with the scriptural interpretation or teachings of their church denomination. I don't now, nor did I when I was a devout Christian, a street preacher, and an evangelism team leader. I'd like for you to know that I'm speaking from the perspective of a spiritualist who has experienced paranormal phenomena (earthbound spirits and hauntings) since I was 6 years old (a total of 44 years).

I've had a couple of very real encounters with a "ghost" so though I don't put a great deal of thoughtful analysis into it, I certainly believe in the phenomena.

Jesus mentioned the appearance of a ghost in Luke 24:37–39 because his disciples thought he was a ghost. 1 Samuel 28:7–20 mentions the ghost of Samuel communicating with King Saul and warning him that God would deliver both him and Israel into the hands of the Philistines because of his disobedience. There is no mention in these verses that the spirit he spoke to was anything else but the ghost of Samuel.

In both these examples, the perceiver determines, IMO, what the ghost's appearance is, or should be. In Samuel, a specific soul is summoned, and they were given their request as recognizable.

In Luke, again, the perceiver saw what they needed to see. However, earlier in Luke (24:4,5) two men stood by the women at the tomb who were not recognized but dressed gloriously. And in Mark (16:5,6) an unknown young man dressed in white was sitting in the tomb. I don't interpret these to be androgynous angels, because they were indentified as men. Ghosts on a mission?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that the dead know nothing, and even their names are forgotten. However, if the dead know nothing, then how would they know if they are either in heaven or hell?

Ecc 9:10 says the dead go to Sheol where they speak and toll no more. Sheol, or the Jewish depiction of Purgatory, is a place of stillness, silence, and darkness. Yes, we the living know that one day we must die, but those in Sheol are in temporary limbo. One theory that I lean towards agreeing with, is this is where the soul resides awaiting their time to be reborn. This the time and place spoken of in the verses referring to sleeping, waiting, and soul sleep. Theoretically, this is the time after judgment, and "the tastes of heaven and hell", that occurs as the rebirth time approaches.

For example, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"). It is a parable of a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades, was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham from afar, and also pleaded with Abraham to help him. It seemingly contradicts Ecclesiastes 9:5, which claims that the dead know nothing.

This parable speaks to "the tastes of heaven and hell" showing the rich man the agony Lazarus knew in worldly life that he could have given relief, and giving Lazarus a taste of paradise as reward for his soul evolution progress. In theory, this is seeing your life from the point of view of the recipients of your worldly thoughts and deeds. Limbo, or a state of rest, comes later.
End of part 1

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Only at the Resurrection, which Jesus said is a future event (John 6:40,44), will good & bad people be brought back to life. — John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15.

But right now, until that “future event” comes, the dead are dead. — Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; Psalm 146:3,4; Ecclesiastes 3:19,20. Etc.

But some people claim to speak with their dead loved ones though, don’t they?
What do you think is going on?

 

[Spice]

Part 2

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten.

That life is over. Sins replayed and forgiven, reward presented. The soul has left "that life" behind for good.

However, it conflicts with other scriptures that suggest there are final rewards given in heaven (such as these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20).

The Book of Life, aka world school enrollment records. [wink] Think of all God's children going from grade (human life) to grade (human life) until the reach the perfection that Jesus reached -- until they have conquered the world. Now think of the Book of Life as that record of progress. Theoretically, after judgment, and they've had their transgressions replayed, felt their own harm, and been forgiven, and they've had their measured taste of heaven, they are given the choice to go back, pay retribution and add to their stores of goodness. If they chose to continue the journey, or they refuse, they go to rest. The Book of Life records whether or not they will be reborned.

Upon extensive reading, study, and examination of the Bible, I've found that Ecclesiastes 3:21 specifies that human spirits and the spirit of the animal rise upward from the earth.

Ecc. 3:21 confirms "who knows" who will rise again. Personally I can't imagine anyone not choosing to try again, but free-will is left intact.

Revelation 20:13 states that spirits rise up from the sea and Hades. Also, Hebrews 9:27 states that people are destined to die once and, after that, face judgment,

I'm not much of a study on Revelation, but my take is this is saying that no matter where the body falls, the soul will be called up. And Heb is reaffirming my belief the body/mind dies to be no more, and your soul goes to judgment. Hebrews 12: 22,23 speaks of the spirits of just men made perfect

and 2 Corinthians 5:8 suggests that believers are in the presence of Jesus after death.

Rev 1:5 states Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. Believer or not, Jesus, at the Father's right hand is the greeter, the mediator, and from his own experience is now the great advisor as the soul decides to go back, or take eternal nothingness.

However, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15, both believers and unbelievers' spirits are sleeping in their graves and awaiting God's judgment in the end times. Furthermore, there are other verses that describe "soul sleep" (Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, John 11:11–15) as well.

Soul sleep -- rest -- forever, or just until your soul (not body/mind/memory) can be reunited with your loved ones' souls. True "soul mates."

In conclusion, and for your reference, I'm including what I wrote in a previous post earlier in this thread (post #59).

And perhaps a scriptural interpretation that all Christians might agree on rather than being divided by the Greek Orthodox Bible (with a 79-book canon), the Catholic Bible (with a 73-book canon), and multiple translations of the Protestant Bible (with a 66-book canon). If they could all agree on which Bible is correct,

I don't think that was ever expected to be. Each book, canonized and rejected, was written from human perspective. Each religion I've read anything about has strongly believed wisdoms worthy of thought. I believe that we have to find our own way and use the wisdoms that speak to our hearts.

then perhaps they could agree on what it actually says about an afterlife rather than most of them repeatedly quoting Hebrews 9:27

States there is one body/mind/ego combination that dies once. I concur.

as if it were the sole verse in the Bible that mentions a hereafter. However, it isn't the only verse. For example, Ecclesiastes 3:21 suggests that human spirits rise upward from the earth, and Revelation 20:13 suggests that they also rise from the sea and Hades and then face God's judgment.

Wherever that combination is on this world, the soul will be called up. I agree.

Conversely, 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15 suggest that all human spirits (both Christians and non-Christians alike) are sleeping in their graves until they are resurrected and judged by God in the alleged end times. Furthermore, Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, and John 11:11–15 all support the concept of "soul sleep."

Soul sleep, Sheol, Purgatory, however it's described or labeled is, IMO, a time of rest between incarnations.

There is also 2 Corinthians 5:8, which suggests that Jesus' followers are instantly in his presence after death.

I believe God's firstborn (Adam) who happens to also be His firstborn from the dead (Jesus) will be the soul who as gently as possible takes me through my replays, speaks on my behalf for the Father's forgiveness, and advises me from his own experience (having received full knowledge at resurrection) when I once again decide to go back.

Someone suggested earlier in this thread that people should read and study the Bible. I'd be more specific about which people.

It also takes reading and studying other views, other writings, the history behind the documents. In example, the four Gospels are examples of the preaching presented to different Jewish audiences. Mark, the oldest, the most basic. Matthew, an elaborated version to keep the interest of the Jewish masses as the word spreed. Luke, the talking points for the Roman Educated Jews, like Saul/Paul. And John, the most mystic verson for the Hellenists.

And we can't forget to pay attention to the history of humankind. I have my beliefs on how the Book of Gensis speaks to humankind as humanoids, with Noah representing Homo-Sapiens becoming the final design. But that's a whole other subject that has a few of my friends smiling and shaking their heads. LOL


Namaste

 

[YoursTrue]

I have none as all hopes are fulfilled already. Nature is doing fine already as it is along with it's capabilities.

I find it extremely comforting with the indigenous saying that it's not you who owns the land, but it is the land that owns you.

A look at Carl Sagons Pale Blue Dot puts things in perspective that is humbling as it is as much awe provoking.

My hopes are and have been satisfied beyond measure. I know because I faced death twice now and know when it happens I'll most certainly be in good 'hands' of the natural forces that brought me about in the first place.

I can understand that in a way I don't own my own body in a sense. My mind is within my body and causes me to do various things. And have various thoughts. But thanks anyway for your answers, Twilight Hue. P.S. When and if my body is disintegrated, I am assured from the Bible that I will have a resurrection.

 

[Nakosis]

So here I go. Firstly, reading the writings of Origen of Alexandria probably influenced me a great deal. However, he was conflicted over reincarnation. Most know that the eastern religions have believed in reincarnation for millennia. And Plato wrote his views on his belief in reincarnation centuries before Christ's ministry. The Bible shows strikng evidence that Jesus and his disciples took reincarnation as fact. Even in the early Christian Church Valentinus and Basilides believed, but Justin Martyr did not.

In the 6th century the church rejected reincarnation because it contradicts the doctrine of corporeal resurrection and undermines Christ's redemptive sacrifices. That's not an issue for me personally as I feel it does Christ an injustice to believe he wiped our slates clean with his death. I feel his life was much more important for he proved we can can reach perfection and be resurrected and return home.

I've had a couple of very real encounters with a "ghost" so though I don't put a great deal of thoughtful analysis into it, I certainly believe in the phenomena.

In both these examples, the perceiver determines, IMO, what the ghost's appearance is, or should be. In Samuel, a specific soul is summoned, and they were given their request as recognizable.

In Luke, again, the perceiver saw what they needed to see. However, earlier in Luke (24:4,5) two men stood by the women at the tomb who were not recognized but dressed gloriously. And in Mark (16:5,6) an unknown young man dressed in white was sitting in the tomb. I don't interpret these to be androgynous angels, because they were indentified as men. Ghosts on a mission?

Ecc 9:10 says the dead go to Sheol where they speak and toll no more. Sheol, or the Jewish depiction of Purgatory, is a place of stillness, silence, and darkness. Yes, we the living know that one day we must die, but those in Sheol are in temporary limbo. One theory that I lean towards agreeing with, is this is where the soul resides awaiting their time to be reborn. This the time and place spoken of in the verses referring to sleeping, waiting, and soul sleep. Theoretically, this is the time after judgment, and "the tastes of heaven and hell", that occurs as the rebirth time approaches.

This parable speaks to "the tastes of heaven and hell" showing the rich man the agony Lazarus knew in worldly life that he could have given relief, and giving Lazarus a taste of paradise as reward for his soul evolution progress. In theory, this is seeing your life from the point of view of the recipients of your worldly thoughts and deeds. Limbo, or a state of rest, comes later.

End of part 1

Bible shows strikng evidence that Jesus and his disciples took reincarnation as fact.

I always thought there was of suggestions reincarnation in the Bible though it ran counter to Christian doctrine.

Depending of what narrative you run with while reading the Bible you get very different understandings of what is being said.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

WOW -- I've got some homework ahead of me! LOL I love it! Thank you for the research and thinking challenge. I will surely reply when I have my notes compiled. My scratch pad is already on my chair arm ready to go............View attachment 89949

I’m glad you’re interested in the Bible!
Many think it contradicts itself on the subject of death, but when it becomes clear that there are TWO hopes offered to people… the Heavenly hope (which everyone is taught about & knows), and an earthly hope (see Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37:29), which results in TWO different resurrections (see Revelation 20:5,6….”Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection”…and see Paul’s words at Philippians 3:11, “If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection which is from among the dead”; if there’s a “first”, there must be a second or later one, right?)

When these and other concepts are better understood, many of the seeming contradictions aren’t conflicts anymore.

 

[joelr]

I just expressed my thoughts on skeptics who challenge supernatural phenomena in another thread, and I'd like for you to read it. You may read my post here. I'd also like to let you know that this will be my final reaction to your direct responses to my posts. I won't be drawn into a debate about my personal experiences or about anything else I consider to be paranormal. As you told me, you believe whatever you like. To each their own. I wish you peace, joelr.

You are not listening. I didn't say I would believe what I like. I said I believe what evidence demonstrates even if I don't like it.
I have no need to read a post if someone isn't going to give evidence or even care if their beliefs are true, which is what this sounds like.
It's also super sketchy to be on a forum called "religious debates" and try to make people feel like they are drawing you or forcing you into debates.

I'm not interested in "to each their own" I would rather know what is true.

 

[joelr]

You gained consciousness when you were conceived and born. You didn't have any consciousness before the event, at least as the person called "you" when coming out of the abyss.

That's the evidence and since the odds are at a definite 1:? I suspect its also repeatable.

I think your personality permanently dies for real, but life itself is another story as the eyes will open again with a completely blank mind as this life was, with no recollection of any former lives , and I suspect this goes on for infinitum.

It's obviously not conclusive , but I think it qualifies as a decent educated guess.

That just sounds like new life. Like you die and later a bush sprouts. New people are born, that is what we already know. The universe can't go on forever though, it will experience some type of state where life is impossible.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That just sounds like new life. Like you die and later a bush sprouts. New people are born, that is what we already know. The universe can't go on forever though, it will experience some type of state where life is impossible.

Yes but it's clearly temporary.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

@Spice,

First and foremost, thank you for replying to my post. I appreciate it. Second, I also appreciate you taking the time to explain your beliefs to me.

 

[George-ananda]

I know religious people are absolutely convinced of some sort of afterlife but for me I am not convinced at all for me personally I feel like nothing will happen when I die now of course I don't know what happens but I just feel like nothing will happen anyway what are your thoughts on an afterlife ?

I am a believer from the Afterlife Evidence

And more Afterlife Evidence

To me this real-world evidence trumps peoples religious or materialist viewpoints.

 

[PearlSeeker]

What else aside from atoms are there?

The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Fool]

I know religious people are absolutely convinced of some sort of afterlife but for me I am not convinced at all for me personally I feel like nothing will happen when I die now of course I don't know what happens but I just feel like nothing will happen anyway what are your thoughts on an afterlife ?

if you look at NDEs of atheists that is exactly what they experience. basically they are aware of themselves and nothing exists around them.

Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I believe that for atheists it doesn't, despite not being one myself. It wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Twilight Hue]

if you look at NDEs of atheists that is exactly what they experience. basically they are aware of themselves and nothing exists around them.

Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A lot of people don't want to admit it's actually their brain that is creating the experience and not something beyond the extraordinary that creates the experience.

 

[Mock Turtle]

if you look at NDEs of atheists that is exactly what they experience. basically they are aware of themselves and nothing exists around them.

Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A long read, but worth it:

The new science of death: ‘There’s something happening in the brain that makes no sense’

The long read: New research into the dying brain suggests the line between life and death may be less distinct than previously thought

www.theguardian.com

 

[Fool]

A lot of people don't want to admit it's actually their brain that is creating the experience and not something beyond the extraordinary that creates the experience.

a brain isn't necessary for information to be accepted, passed. something like a neural pathway is the only thing that is necessary. and the original op has a feeling.....................feelings can manipulate the brain..

[Sighted and blind in one person: a case report and conclusions on the psychoneurobiology of vision] - PubMed

We present a patient with dissociative identity disorder (DID) who after 15 years of diagnosed cortical blindness gradually regained sight during psychotherapeutic treatment. At first only a few personality states regained vision, whereas others remained blind. This was confirmed by...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

6 Impossible Things the Brain Can Actually Do

Mirror-touch synesthesia, "blindsight," and other phenomena.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Fool]

A long read, but worth it:

The new science of death: ‘There’s something happening in the brain that makes no sense’

The long read: New research into the dying brain suggests the line between life and death may be less distinct than previously thought

www.theguardian.com

admittedly that would be one acceptable scenario because of the dying brain but unfortunately some of these folks are already dead, have been for hours and then strangely come back to life with memories.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe in an afterlife.

 

[setarcos]

I don't go by feelings. I just don't see any evidence for an afterlife. Therefore, I think "I" will be the same after my death, as "I" was before my birth.

I've wondered about this...if we've no evidence (some would debate that) of what happens after death then why would you equate after death with your state before birth? There is some data which indicates that there is more to "death" than simply switching off from here to gone. The scientific explanations of some of these phenomena are embryonic and some sophomoric at best with many physicians testifying that there seems to be more to death than meets the eye.
If the only data we have to work with is being alive the equation has changed from what you were or weren't before you were born.
Are we falling prey to confirmation bias? I mean we know as much about pre birth as we do about after life except for what I've indicated above.