You have lived the life with caring and love in your heart. Surely such love will be returned.
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How many people on this forum is vegetarian?
- Thread starter Starlight
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You have lived the life with caring and love in your heart. Surely such love will be returned.
When it rains, worms gasp for air and come to the surface, and end up in storm drains where they will drown or dry up. I rescue them and put them back into the soil, in a relatively dry spot where they could survive. I worry about stepping on bugs as I walk.
I wonder if the microbes in the soil have souls or feelings?
I worry about wearing leather (shoes, belts).
firedragon
Veteran Member
All due respect.
I guess there are some reasons why I am not a vegetarian. Maybe I would like to hear your thoughts.
1. I think we are made to eat meat and plants both. Its just a natural thing for humans to eat meat.
2. I do not believe in reincarnation so no human will be born after death as an animal on earth. I think the notion is impossible.
You know what? You say animals have souls. Maybe yes. Do you believe plants have souls? I mean they get afraid, happy, and they get hurt. So due to these reasons do you think humans should not eat plants as well?
Please quote the scriptures that say that pets will be reborn.We tell our kids their pets will be reborn, because that's what we believe.
And, our scriptures says such, too.
Dogs eat filth.
These are scriptures about dogs:
"As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly."
"But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any person or animal.’ Then you will know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel."
"“You are to be my holy people. So do not eat the meat of an animal torn by wild beasts; throw it to the dogs."
"So Gideon took the men down to the water. There the Lord told him, “Separate those who lap the water with their tongues as a dog laps from those who kneel down to drink.”:
"Three hundred of them drank from cupped hands, lapping like dogs. All the rest got down on their knees to drink."
"He said to David, “Am I a dog, that you come at me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods."
"“Against whom has the king of Israel come out? Who are you pursuing? A dead dog? A flea?"
"Abner was very angry because of what Ish-Bosheth said. So he answered, “Am I a dog’s head—on Judah’s side? This very day I am loyal to the house of your father Saul and to his family and friends. I haven’t handed you over to David. Yet now you accuse me of an offense involving this woman!"
"Mephibosheth bowed down and said, “What is your servant, that you should notice a dead dog like me?”"
"Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds will feed on those who die in the country. The Lord has spoken!’"
"Lord says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth’s blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes, yours!’”"
"Lord says: ‘Dogs will devour Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.’"
“Dogs will eat those belonging to Ahab who die in the city, and the birds will feed on those who die in the country.”
"They washed the chariot at a pool in Samaria (where the prostitutes bathed), and the dogs licked up his blood, as the word of the Lord had declared."
"As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and no one will bury her.’” Then he opened the door and ran."
"Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet."
"Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs."
"They return at evening, snarling like dogs, and prowl about the city."
"that your feet may wade in the blood of your foes, while the tongues of your dogs have their share.”"
"Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own."
"Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!"
"Israel’s watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep."
"They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, they seek their own gain."
"But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a person, and whoever offers a lamb is like one who breaks a dog’s neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig’s blood, and whoever burns memorial incense is like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and they delight in their abominations"
"“I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” declares the Lord, “the sword to kill and the dogs to drag away and the birds and the wild animals to devour and destroy."
"“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
"“Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”"
"longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores."
"Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh."
"“A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”"
"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
The Florida Keys are in saltwater.
What about the microbes that we step on or inhale?
What about microbes that live inside us?
You do realize the Bible is not my scripture, and the Bible holds no meaning to me, right?
(If you can't see the tag text to my name, it says 'Hindu')
firedragon
Veteran Member
What about them?
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
I worry that when a lawn is mown that it hurts the grass.
I worry about what genetic manipulation people do living things everywhere.
I wonder that modern yogurt contains strains of cultures that have been engineered and patented.
I worry about the impact of paved roads on eco-systems.
But when people die, their physical bodies also return to the earth. For all creatures, it is the same. The worry is not so much for the physical body, but for the sacred nature of life itself. We are all a part of it.
I am not so worried about leather shoes. Perhaps that is because I have been so very thankful to have had leather gloves to protect my hands from harsh environments and without which I suffered greatly for some time.
Is it better if creatures die and rot in the ground? I think that perhaps it would be wasteful to serve only the purposes of death and decay.
I think that microbes are... amazing. I strongly desire to live in harmony with the incredible vast array of micro-organisms. I am opposed to anything that I think would disrupt that delicate harmony. I don't pretend to understand the world of micro-organisms, their life and death in millions, but I realize that our lives are entwined with the lives of micro-organisms intimately and I feel good about having a mutually beneficial relationship with micro-organisms. I don't feel bad when they live or die as part of the natural processes of continued life.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
It was...suprising.
I agree. Our species would never have made it through the Pleistocene without access to meat. We're not built to graze.
That said, carnivory is a moral issue. What qualities do humans possess, entitling them to moral consideration, that a pig or chicken does not? Our species' natural history is not an excuse. Morality is all about suppressing our deleterious, natural appetites and behaviors.
Moreover, we are now a very populous social species, and our carnivory has become largely unnecessary and and an ecological hazard to the planet.
Fair enough.
Plants do communicate, and react to certain stimuli, but extending this to the cognitive experience of fear and happiness is unwarranted. Nor is there any reason to believe they are capable of experiencing pain, as we do. They have no nociceptors; no neurological wiring or apparatus needed for such experience.
Nature does not develop or support useless features: What use would emotions or pain perception have, in an essentially immobile organism? They'd be useless, biological burdens.
Where is the neurological anatomy in plants, that supports emotion, cognition and pain perception in animals?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Great. Thanks. Lets see how the future unfolds.
Only recently I was watching a very old debate on vegetarianism. And I happened to read something online, being no expert in this field whatsoever. Dr. Toyota (second name cannot remember) said that plants feel an animal trying to eat it. I will try to find the paper somewhere.
Some plants even emit some kind of chemicals to stop animals eating it. These chemicals make them unattractive. That was published in Oecologia in 2014. Fear and pain are just words that simplifies these things in simple words.
So lets see how the future unfolds.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I'm not because I don't and instead believe they are delicious.
Which is not to say that I don't care how they are treated while alive though...
Sure they get afraid. We can try and reduce that to a minimum by treated them good while alive.
They also eat eachother, btw.
I like to eat meat. It's also healthy to be part of your diet (in moderation, like with pretty much everything).
I think there are good and valid arguments on both sides of this issue. So much so that it seems to me that on those grounds, it's almost arbitrary to which side you'll go with.
Personally I fall on the side that says "eating meat is okay, but it's probably a good idea to try and reduce the consumption rate thereof". And the main reason for that, is the ecological footprint of the meat industry.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Yeah, read such things to.
To use words like "fear" and "communication" etc for such phenomenon is just metaphorical though.
To take that literally is a mistake as it makes it look as if sentience is involved, while it really isn't.
This is pretty much simply blind action - reaction in what I can only describe as a deterministic cause and effect type thing.
The thing is that the planet doesn't actually "think" or "see" or "feels" that an animal is trying to eat it. It's more a build in mechanism that whenever X occurs to its roots or leaves or what have you, that chemical reaction Y occurs, resulting in the release of certain chemicals or perhaps even electrical pulses / charges.
Surrounding plants might even pick up on that when those chemicals are caught by its own "receptors" or whatever which then triggers a similar reaction.
No sentience or conscience as we know it, is involved in this at all.
Perhaps both of you are discounting evolution, which appears to show we evolved to cope with a wide range of foods, given that we have the teeth and the digestive system to manage such. And perhaps the meat-eating just accelerated evolution.I'm not. Because my teeth are for meat.
Anyway, I was a vegetarian for a few years when younger and can attest to the fact that one can live just as much a normal life on such a diet - I was quite active then and especially as to caving a lot, which is often a very strenuous form of exercise. If I do eventually transition back to vegetarianism, or even veganism, it will be because of the rather inhumane way we tend to treat all other life that makes up so much of our diet these days.
And I fail to see how anyone can ever promote love as an ideal when it might miss out so much other life. Hence perhaps why I don't tend to see so many religions in a good light.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think you just wanted evolution in so you had to start with some red herring.
Irrelevant mate.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I think you just wanted evolution in so you had to start with some red herring.
Irrelevant mate.
Don't think it's irrelevant since you said that we "were made to eat meat and plants".
We weren't.
Instead, we evolved the ability to digest meat as well as plants.
Your statement implies that we are somehow "meant" to eat meat, as if it was a conscience decision made by a 3rd party for the human species. To the point that if we would stop eating meat, that we would not be fullfilling our "cosmic purpose" of how we were "made" or something.
That's just a wrong way of looking at it.
There's no such purpose in evolution and we are under no obligation whatsoever to eat anything in particular other then basic biological requirements which deals with specific nutrients which we can obtain from a wide variety of food sources - meat being among them, but there's nothing in meat that we can't also get from other sources also.
