How many people on this forum is vegetarian?

[Secret Chief]

Herbivores have incisors. Herbivores have canines. So what?

Do I need to retract? I thought incisors (and canines) were shaped for tearing meat while molars were for grinding cellulose. Of course most of my understanding comes from looking inside my cat's mouth.

“The crown shapes of cat teeth reflect the function of a true carnivore,” says Dr. Alexander Reiter, associate professor of dentistry and oral surgery and clinician educator at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine in Philadelphia. Your cat’s teeth are made for shearing and tearing through their prey like a jungle cat. Those large canine teeth (fangs) are optimized for puncturing the skin of prey."
- The Best Pet Health & Care Advice from Real Vets | PetMD

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think you just wanted evolution in so you had to start with some red herring.

Irrelevant mate.

Thinking we are designed for some particular diet is probably the red herring.

 

[Secret Chief]

Thinking we are designed for some particular diet is probably the red herring.

Our mouth is designed for eating cake. Hence the expression "Shut your cake hole. Fatty."

 

[firedragon]

Toyota was anthropomorphizing. "Feel" is unwarranted. Pants do react. They do communicate. This does not indicate consciousness.

Lots of plants emit communicative chemicals when harmed. Plants do communicate. They do respond when harmed or attacked. They are way more reactive and communicative than generally believed, but just because we do the same, and we're conscious, does not mean plant communication is conscious.

Lol. Aight mate. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Thinking we are designed for some particular diet is probably the red herring.

Who said that? Did you just create that in your mind?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Who said that? Did you just create that in your mind?

Probably. But many seem to think we are - designed or made to eat meat.

 

[firedragon]

Probably. But many seem to think we are - designed or made to eat meat.

Yeah. Its just one of the meals a human can have. So please try not to create a bogus idea that I tried to make it look that we are made to eat this so called particular diet. People also eat peanuts.

Try your best to defy the inclination to create things other people supposedly said but actually didnt. try, and you might succeed.

Peace.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What does this have to do with abstract moral principals?

I was replying to the comment about "souls" primarily.
Having said that, I don't necessarily have an a priori moral problem to consume animals as a food source. At least not on principle.

What does reducing fear have to do with it?

I'm just saying. Just because I don't see, necessarily, a moral problem with consuming animals as a food source, from there it doesn't follow that I don't see a moral problem with treating animals badly.

So yes, I acknowledge that animals can experience fear and I'm just saying, since I believe in fair treatment of animals, I say that one should try and minimize them experiencing fear if one can do so.

What does the dharma of other animals have to do with ours?

Sorry, I don't know what that term means and thus by extension, I don't know what you are asking me.

Again, what does æsthetics or healthfullness have to do with morality?

What makes you think I was making a moral argument there?

 

[Valjean]

Do I need to retract? I thought incisors (and canines) were shaped for tearing meat while molars were for grinding cellulose. Of course most of my understanding comes from looking inside my cat's mouth.

“The crown shapes of cat teeth reflect the function of a true carnivore,” says Dr. Alexander Reiter, associate professor of dentistry and oral surgery and clinician educator at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine in Philadelphia. Your cat’s teeth are made for shearing and tearing through their prey like a jungle cat. Those large canine teeth (fangs) are optimized for puncturing the skin of prey."
- The Best Pet Health & Care Advice from Real Vets | PetMD

Human incisors are useless for grasping prey, tearing meat or fighting, and incisors are not necessarily indicative of a carnivorous diet.

A Vegetarian.

Musk deer
Another vegetarian.

 

[Valjean]

Thinking we are designed for some particular diet is probably the red herring.

How so?
Isn't everything "designed" by natural selection to fit a particular ecological niche and lifestyle?

 

[fantome profane]

I am vegetarian because i believe animals do have souls. God loves us humans but God also love animals. I am also against animals cruelty, animals is not stupid. They get afraid just like us.

I also believe in reicarnation. Some humans Will become a animal in their next life and some animals Will become a human in their next life. Animals and humans is more similar to each other than many humans think.

Why Are you vegetarian?

Why Are you not vegetarian?

I am a vegetarian, nearly vegan, but still consume the occasional dairy product,

I don’t believe animals have souls, but I don’t believe humans do either. But animals do experience pain, and fear and great suffering particularly in our factory farm environments. And I believe we have a duty to reduce suffering when we can.

I also believe eliminating or reducing meat from our diets is better for our health and better for the environment.

 

[Mock Turtle]

How so?
Isn't everything "designed" by natural selection to fit a particular ecological niche and lifestyle?

I don't see how designed could be used for such when 'fitting the environment' might be more appropriate. Surely designed means something that creates or is created intentionally rather than something that simply reacts to a situation or survives because of some inherent properties and/or behaviour? Is there any design at any point in evolution? The teeth we have seem to be able to cope with a variety of situations, and meat is just one of them, given that there are many non-meat uses for the cutting teeth.

 

[Valjean]

I don't see how designed could be used for such when 'fitting the environment' might be more appropriate. Surely designed means something that creates or is created intentionally rather than something that simply reacts to a situation or survives because of some inherent properties and/or behaviour? Is there any design at any point in evolution? The teeth we have seem to be able to cope with a variety of situations, and meat is just one of them, given that there are many non-meat uses for the cutting teeth.

Not so surely...
This is why I try to avoid using "design" in evolution-creationism discussions; it's ambiguous, it can refer to either intentional or accidental mechanisms. Personally, I believe the evidence for the various mechanisms of natural evolution is overwhelming, while the evidence for magic poofing is nonexistent.

Our teeth are generalized; not surprising in a historically omnivorous animal. They have also been largely relegated to simple chewing, since we've been obtaining and processing food externally, with hands and tools and fire, for a long time now.

 

[Valjean]

Several people have brought up souls, apparently as a factor in vegetarianism vs carnivory.
How would they factor? I should think the ephemeral life of a soulless being would be more dear than the eternal life of a soul.

 

[Secret Chief]

Human incisors are useless for grasping prey, tearing meat or fighting, and incisors are not necessarily indicative of a carnivorous diet.

A Vegetarian.

Musk deer
Another vegetarian.

OK, I concede.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not so surely...
This is why I try to avoid using "design" in evolution-creationism discussions; it's ambiguous, it can refer to either intentional or accidental mechanisms. Personally, I believe the evidence for the various mechanisms of natural evolution is overwhelming, while the evidence for magic poofing is nonexistent.

Our teeth are generalized; not surprising in a historically omnivorous animal. They have also been largely relegated to simple chewing, since we've been obtaining and processing food externally, with hands and tools and fire, for a long time now.

Well I wouldn't see any accidental mechanisms as being design - since such might produce a variety of outcomes. And I would tend to use design in the strict sense of intention to create or a process that inevitably would produce something and not something else. Hence why I don't think design is involved in evolution.

I'm not sure that the various scientists involved know why we have the different teeth we have or how they came about. Given that some teeth can be used for defence as much as they can be useful with regards food. The few examples we have from the past do often give information as to diet but no doubt still much to learn. I try to follow the latest information on all this but of course purely as a layman.

 

[Valjean]

Well I wouldn't see any accidental mechanisms as being design - since such might produce a variety of outcomes. And I would tend to use design in the strict sense of intention to create or a process that inevitably would produce something and not something else. Hence why I don't think design is involved in evolution.

I'm not sure that the various scientists involved know why we have the different teeth we have or how they came about. Given that some teeth can be used for defence as much as they can be useful with regards food. The few examples we have from the past do often give information as to diet but no doubt still much to learn. I try to follow the latest information on all this but of course purely as a layman.

I use "accidental" not in the sense of being fortuitous or incidental, but in the older sense of "unintentional." "Accidental" is ambiguous, too.
This is why scientists and scholars use technical definitions.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this subject. We're quibbling over stylistic semantics.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I use "accidental" not in the sense of being fortuitous or incidental, but in the older sense of "unintentional." "Accidental" is ambiguous, too.
This is why scientists and scholars use technical definitions.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this subject. We're quibbling over stylistic semantics.

Yeah, I think we might be. Interesting topic though and as to how we try to understand our past regarding diet and what determined such.

 

[Valjean]

I think we ate whatever was available and obtainable, in the time and place we found ourselves.
Hominids were pretty widespread, a million years ago, so this was probably pretty varied.

 

[fantome profane]

Several people have brought up souls, apparently as a factor in vegetarianism vs carnivory.
How would they factor? I should think the ephemeral life of a soulless being would be more dear than the eternal life of a soul.

I was wondering if a being with a soul would taste different.

(spicy)