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Featured How in the world did Christians get Jesus from the Old Testament?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nowhere Man, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Matthew 27:3-10 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that Jesus was condemned, felt remorse, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (4) saying, “I have sinned in that I betrayed innocent blood.” But they said, “What is that to us? You see to it.” (5) He threw down the pieces of silver in the sanctuary, and departed. He went away and hanged himself. (6) The chief priests took the pieces of silver, and said, “It’s not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is the price of blood.” (7) They took counsel, and bought the potter’s field with them, to bury strangers in. (8) Therefore that field was called “The Field of Blood” to this day. (9) Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him upon whom a price had been set, whom some of the children of Israel priced, (10) and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

    Zechariah 11:12-14 I said to them, “If you think it best, give me my wages; and if not, keep them.” So they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver. (13) Yahweh said to me, “Throw it to the potter, the handsome price that I was valued at by them!” I took the thirty pieces of silver, and threw them to the potter, in Yahweh’s house. (14) Then I cut apart my other staff, even Union, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

    In my opinion:

    Zechariah 11 (Jeremiah 25:34-38) was fulfilled when 30 pieces of silver were paid and put in the Potter's field in the House of Israel, this nullified the covenants, thus the 2nd temple was destroyed, and diaspora happened.

    in Zechariah 11:8 and in Isaiah 53:3 he is despised; just as we find in the New Testament, it is the Leaders of the people who are the ones who had Yeshua put to death, fulfilling the prophecies in the process.

    Think the reason people don't see the connections isn't translation, as we can all use technology to bridge the gap with concordances, dictionaries, and research tools; we can virtually check under every word... It is more a comprehension issue, we need to be able to store masses of text in our mind, to add it up properly like code.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Wow! 24 books in the Hebrew Bible and 39 in the Christian Old Testament.

    Thats a LOT of books the Christians added to the Hebrew Bible.

    No wonder so many Christian messianic prophecies got "fulfilled". They were made and fulfilled by themselves.
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is all true of course. We can not take one verse and interpret its meaning while ignoring the context of the work its part of or the Tanakh as a whole.

    What Christianity has achieved, though clearly not to the satisfaction of the Jews, is to integrate their NT theology with most of the significant sacred texts in your tradition. That is a remarkable accomplishment.

    Perhaps the Christians have totally twisted the Tanakh but a third of the world are now Christian and the narrative that weaves the two traditions together appears plausible to many. I'm not a Christian but the Christians certainly have me convinced that Jesus was your Jewish Messiah that fulfilled at least some prophecy during a time of intense messianic expectation over two thousand years ago. Their arguments make sense to many, and regardless the Teachings of Christ have positively transformed the lives of millions, members of my family included.

    The arguments provided by the Jews are excellent too, please don't misunderstand me. Having been brought up a Christian (I'm a Baha'i now) I had never really considered your POV until coming on RF. However it appears too little, too late because once Constantine converted in the fourth century AD, the Christians had won.
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    When one works after the fact with the benefit of hindsight, one can reverse engineer all sorts of things. Start with what you want the text to say, construct a theology revolving around that idea, and the idea "ends up" being found in the earlier text.

    So take something and decide it is a messianic prophecy (regardless of what the Jews believe) then have it "fulfilled" so that you can say "look, that earlier prophecy was fulfilled."
     
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Daniel was talking about the coming of a future time Messiah as per Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9.
    The 'weeks of years' did Not end in Daniel's day but in the first century and that is why the people of the first century as mentioned at Luke 3:15 were in ' expectation ' or expecting Messiah God's Anointed One to appear at that time.
    Jesus role is that of both King of God's Kingdom besides Jesus' role as High Priest as per Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 4:14; Hebrews 5:10; Hebrews 6:20 and so forth.....
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is true lol.

    I think they are up to 300 + verses now that tick the prophecy fulfilled box.

    AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

    It must infuriate you guys no end.

    How do you stem the tide? I think you do a great job refuting each one on a case by case basis but I can't see the Christians becoming Noahide en masse. Can you?
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone can stem any tide. We educate person by person and have, as we always need to, try to play a tight defense. In terms of inspiring others beyond just the education, I would hope that most Jews just try to lead by example -- live the life. I just try to keep my head low and be who I am supposed to be.
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    Quite a few have in recent years; the problem in counting those numbers is that a lot of them then go on to convert to Judaism and then to all intents and purposes appear always to have been Jewish.
     
    #68 Rival, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  9. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    I think it would have better if you just admitted your typo instead of calling me stupid.
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That sounds like a wise approach and you are all doing an excellent job. I enjoy hearing the Jewish POV even though I may not agree with it, because it is well considered and thoughtfully communicated.

    Living the life is the best most of us can hope to achieve.:)
     
  11. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    I've seen some up to 800 fulfilled prophecies. It doesn't matter to us what someone wants to make up. We have better things to do with our time than chase nonsense.

    We don't need to. When our future messiah shows up, everyone on Earth will realize their mistake and become Noahide on their own. We don't know HOW it will happen, but G-d told us that it would.
     
  12. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I think you should learn to let the little things go...
     
  13. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    And I think you shouldn't insult people.

    I was expecting you to laugh it off.
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Its interesting that you have decided to move from Christianity to Noahide which at first glance from my Baha'i centred view of the universe appears a step backwards. Then Judaism appears so respectful and cohesive here on RF that easily eclipses the Christians. From that perspective I can see why.

    Noahide only has seven laws to follow. Judaism has 613! Are you ready for the step up?
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    But you do know HOW it didn't happen and that is wasn't through Jesus. Therefore from the Tanakh you must have something to say about the HOW surely?

    Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    Prefer to think of them as 613 chances to score miztvah points.

    I have been considering conversion for a while.
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It could be an epiphany of light and inspiration!

    I was initially a little concerned that as a non-Jew living in a Jewish theocracy I may get stoned to death for practicing medicine on the Sabbath, but @rosends has put my mind at ease on that score.
     
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  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Active Member

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    Then how could there have been somewhere in the range of 400,000 Messianic Jews living in the Roman Province of Judaea by the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt?

    For the record, I am a Christian who is very interested in the Noahide Movement and I feel that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus actually had teaching very similar to that of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov..... if you read between the lines.

    I also am a Christian who supports the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Third Temple, by Jews, for Jews, but partly ..... or significantly financed by Gentiles who have a Cyrus approach to religion.
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Noachide Counter-Revolutionary
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    Because people can and will believe all manner of silly things. There were many Karaite Jews too. Rav Akiva once believed that a certain man could be the messiah who ended up most definitely not being. Even the wisest tzadikim can be wrong. It's still true that Christianity ultimately became a gentile movement.
    You just compared Jesus to the Rebbe?? I'm sorry but I must disagree. The Rebbe would never utter such blasphemies I believe Jesus uttered, such as calling Jews 'of your father the devil'.
    That's nice. The messiah is supposed to do this though.
     
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  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Active Member

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    Yes...... the Messianic Gentile movement that evolved into Christianity did not take very long to become dominated by Gentiles...... and then later..... quite anti-Semitic in flavour after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple.

    I could be wrong... .but I believe that the near death experience phenomena has made it possible for us to access a type of information that can transform the relationship between Jews and Christians quite rapidly.

    For example, then fifteen year old Natan, who had a near death experience in 2015, verified a statement by Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus - Issa that few of us Christians take seriously at all:

    Matthew 5:18,19

    Near death experiencer Natan was shown that wearing tzitzit was very important..........
    I suppose wearing tzitzit would be considered a "least commandment"..... but perhaps Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus induced a full fledged near death experience through fasting.......... and ended up with very similar ideas to the massive paradigm shift that most near death experiencers do go through.
     
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