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Featured How in the world did Christians get Jesus from the Old Testament?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Twilight Hue, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    No, but I just thought that someone might have tried anyway. :)
     
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  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Yeah they wouldn't been able to harmonize the prophecies in the text so they had to invent some prophecies and so fulfill it leading people to believe it's originally from Jewish scriptures.
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The how could allude to a time frame for what will happen. So although Jesus hasn't brought about what you guys expect, you don't know for certain that He won't. For example He may have laid the foundation for what you believe will happen when the Messiah comes. Christianity as well as being the largest religion worldwide is also the most widespread.

    Whether or not you are prepared to have a serious conversation about the how and what is another question. If you are, we will need an English translation of the Tanakh agreeable to us both. If not, no problem. I'm not a Christian, and I'm not keen on discussions that result in more heat than light.
     
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    So you would have no qualms with me starting with the Old Testament, claiming that a bunch of prophecy has come true and fitting this and that occurrence into the "holes" that needed filled in said prophecy, then writing my own amending/accompanying text and producing a new canon/bible. My version would also start with "Jewish texts", would be entirely different than yours, and then, if my version ever had hundreds of millions of followers, I could point to them as the proof that it is correct. Wouldn't that be just peachy? Driving the world ever further into Abrahamic obscurity, and all as if the believers themselves weren't already doing enough of the same.
     
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  5. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    You do you.

    Doesn't change that the first Christians were religious Jews following their faith, or that the "Old Testament" is not a foreign set of texts to Christianity.
     
  6. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't. One thing it also doesn't mean is that any of it is "correct"/"true"/"real." And my guess is that you can admit the former, but not the latter.
     
  7. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    What are you on about? Of course that isn't what makes it true.

    Are you even aware of what I was responding to?
     
  8. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    Our sages have had lots of discussions on this matter for thousands of years. The general consensus is that it is a waste of time to attempt to predict when the Messianic Age starts. It will happen when it happens.

    Alternatively, the jesus figure may have delayed the Messianic Age by causing so many people to embrace idolatry.

    The WHAT is discussable, the HOW is not. Tanakh and Talmud both have details about WHAT will happen. However, we shouldn't discuss the WHAT here, start a new thread if you want. The HOW is mentioned nowhere. So any discussions about it would be nothing but speculation and wishful thinking. I don't see a point to talking about the HOW. Only G-d knows.

    FYI, I really like your comment about heat and light. I gotta remember that.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 48:5 therefore I have declared it to you from of old; before it came to pass I showed it to you; lest you should say, 'My idol has done them, and my engraved image, and my molten image, has commanded them.' :innocent:
     
  10. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Using the Sefaria per Jayhawker Soule's request:

    Micah 5:1-3
    And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath, Least among the clans of Judah, From you one shall come forth To rule Israel for Me— One whose origin is from of old, From ancient times.
    Truly, He will leave them [helpless] Until she who is to bear has borne; Then the rest of his countrymen Shall return to the children of Israel.
    He shall stand and shepherd By the might of the LORD, By the power of the name Of the LORD his God, And they shall dwell [secure]. For lo, he shall wax great To the ends of the earth;

    Zechariah 9:9-10
    Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ***, On a donkey foaled by a she-***.
    ׃
    He shall banish chariots from Ephraim And horses from Jerusalem; The warrior’s bow shall be banished. He shall call on the nations to surrender, And his rule shall extend from sea to sea And from ocean to land’s end.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Besides Jesus' day, today the priests ( religious leaders ) don't mind the constant direct deposits.
    Remember the only time Jesus ' passed the plate ' so to speak, was when Jesus fed people bread and fish.
    Jesus said we are to teach for free (No charge) according to Matthew 10:8 B.

    Yes, secular authorities date the calendar per his assumed birth year.
    None of us choose to say when we will be born, but we do have a say as to our decisions, such as to marry, etc.
    Jesus could have walked away at any time from his death but choose to stay for us.
    An animal can Not be an equal to Adam before his downfall, but the animal showed that we needed a savior.
    Not only 100% of Christians die but so do all non-Christians as per Romans 5:12.
    The resurrection is placed to take place in the the future according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15 because there I find the ' future tense ' is used as it says that ' there is going to be ' a resurrection...... That future resurrection takes place during Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find that Jesus divided (so to speak) at Matthew 22:36-40 when Jesus talked about the first and greatest commandment was to love God first, and then one's neighbor as second as per Leviticus 19:18.
    Plus, at John 13:34-35 Jesus gave a New commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has which includes putting his God as first, then others before one's self.
     
  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    He DID decide to walk away all the times his life was threatened except that last time when he couldn't run anymore. Sorry, but "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GOD GET ME OUT OF THIS" doesn't tell me Jesus was just skipping over to the Romans going "KILL ME PLEASE".

    For what? Jesus tells a parable of Lazarus, who went to heaven. This story predates Jesus' death. We don't need anyone aside from God for forgiveness, because God seemed to have that covered all throughout the OT and Jesus could forgive prior to dying as well. Romans executing what they considered a religious terrorist has no bearing on our salvation. We and God determine the state of our souls.

    Do you understand my point, though?

    That was only said when it became obvious that joining the club didn't make you immortal.
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find according to the Bible that starting with Adam and Eve we were never ( repeat never ) to be immortal.
    Sure false clergy teaches we are more alive at death then before death.
    If that was the case there would be No need for a resurrection to either Heaven or back to life on Earth.
    God offered Adam and Eve ' everlasting life on Earth ' if they did Not break the Law.
    If they were immortal then it would Not matter if they broke the Law or not.
    They ( and us ) were and are mortals.
    Jesus did offer a 'heavenly resurrection' to those of Luke 22:28-30 and only those will gain immortality.
    As a whole mankind is Not offered immortality but everlasting life on Earth if we choose to obey God as Sovereign.
    Jesus could have called upon legions of angels for help according to Matthew 26:52-54 (Matthew 4:11).
    The state of our souls, our life, will also be determined at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37. Those figurative living 'sheep' on Earth can gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall to become part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Sure Christians use the Jewish texts. I find Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written..." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining them for us. The Bible is full of corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages referring to the OT Hebrew Scriptures. Referring to them does Not mean the temporary Constitution of the old Mosaic Law is still in effect on the Christian congregation because Jesus fulfilled that old Law according to Romans 10:4.
     
  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    You know, not only do I want a bible that consists of the Hebrew texts plus the NT, but add the Quran in there too. Sure, the book'll be huge, unless it's an ebook, and then it won't matter. :)
     
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  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Active Member

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    A book was preserved into our time period only in Arabic that I am sure you will enjoy.......

    Forgotten Books of Eden: First Book of Adam and Eve
     
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  18. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I don’t recall Jesus ever quoting anything from the Hebrew Scriptures.

    I have on recall few of the NT authors, quoting certain verses from the OT, but not Jesus.

    Can you give a few examples that Jesus did?
     
  19. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? -John 10:34

    Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    This also shows that Jesus is the author of the OT through his prophets.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:

    The parable of the wicked husbandmen is based on Isaiah 5, and many of the parables have interlinking ideas within the Tanakh....

    There are also quite a few statements that quote, if you do a word search of the word 'written' loads of quotes come up by Yeshua.

    Matthew 13:14-15 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive: (15) for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again; and I would heal them.’

    Matthew 15:7-9 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, (8) ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (9) And in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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