How do you "know" that others are wrong and you are right?

[Trailblazer]

And I do say knowledge is a religious thing.

Knowledge of God is a religious thing.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Knowledge of God is a religious thing.

Omniscience doesn't require science and that's what happens to the angel of light. "At the end of the day you just need to jump"- Jim Halpert

 

[Mock Turtle]

But I notice I get tired of always being alert to those who don't want religion or spiritual life to grow.

Well you are still assuming that you are right here (everyone has this need), rather than allowing for the fact that you might be wrong, and hence just allowing others to have their own beliefs or lack of them. I hope I am not seen as attacking religions or religious beliefs in themselves - but all too often the effects of such on any believers and/or those who don't share such. If religions had no negative effects then I think few would even bother querying religious beliefs at all, but unfortunately they often do have such.

And of course, in answer to the question, I don't often know where I am wrong or right.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

For me it has come to a point where I no longer see a reason to post more here in RF, so this might be my last OP. But time will tell

I have nothing against atheists and their lack of belief, but do not understand why they so desperately try to tear down the belief of religious/spiritual people. And even tell people they are wrong when someone have had a spiritual experience.

I can do that for you. I am an atheist and religious and in some sense spiritual. Ask me if you want to know more.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I only take issue with fundies of religion because they have non believers burning in hell for all eternity. All other religions that don't condemn me, and are not corrupt I don't have a problem with.

I get bored with debating science vs. religion. It gets nowhere. Discussion is far superior to debate hands down.

They need discussion forums where non believers can inform themselves better about the different Faith's and religions.

I think I have seen every debate point on science vs. religion. This RF is a wonderful format and easy to use, but the debate style stuff only for non believers is only confrontational.

I'd rather RF had a section where non believers can discuss but not necessarily debate religion. Discussion that doesn't prohibit debate but is for the purposes of discussion.

I do not condemn atheists to Hell, that is non of my business to do

 

[Spirit of Light]

Oh - I have magical powers that give me special insight. That's how I know I'm right.

Edit: in all seriousness, if you want others to give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what you're talking about, maybe give others the same benefit of the doubt in turn. Maybe these non-believers are seeing something you don't.

I am not against non believers, only want an end to the nagging, and then Atheists will be let alone too

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well you are still assuming that you are right here (everyone has this need), rather than allowing for the fact that you might be wrong, and hence just allowing others to have their own beliefs or lack of them. I hope I am not seen as attacking religions or religious beliefs in themselves - but all too often the effects of such on any believers and/or those who don't share such. If religions had no negative effects then I think few would even bother querying religious beliefs at all, but unfortunately they often do have such.

And of course, in answer to the question, I don't often know where I am wrong or right.

I believe religion or spiritual practice is right for me, I can not speak for others.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Being right is a lot of work, particularly in areas where
it's not possible, ie, the old "nicht einmal falsch" scenario.
I like to state my personal "preferences".
Then there's no need to defend them.

As long as you keep your personal "preferences", personal it is possible. It is not possible though if you in effect claim good or bad for more than yourself and include other humans or indeed claim what the best society and so on is.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe religion or spiritual practice is right for me, I can not speak for others.

That is fine, and most people who have some kind of religious belief probably think so too, but all too often one will then go on to assume a position - such that others should just accept some things or others should behave in a certain way.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is fine, and most people who have some kind of religious belief probably think so too, but all too often one will then go on to assume a position - such that others should just accept some things or others should behave in a certain way.

I never asked atheists/non believers to take part in my OP's that is something they do them self.
Personally I am in RF to speak with other spiritual people. Even in Dir that is not possible.
So where should I add my question to avoid those I have no interest in speaking with?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I never asked atheists/non believers to take part in my OP's that is something they do them self.
Personally I am in RF to speak with other spiritual people. Even in Dir that is not possible.
So where should I add my question to avoid those I have no interest in speaking with?

Not sure that is possible given the nature of free speech, but I would have thought that by now you would have developed a thicker skin and just ignored that which might offend you. I often do - since I could be jumping into so many threads where I feel I have to interject, but usually don't.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Not sure that is possible given the nature of free speech, but I would have thought that by now you would have developed a thicker skin and just ignored that which might offend you. I often do - since I could be jumping into so many threads where I feel I have to interject, but usually don't.

My skin is thick enough, but I have my limitation when same person again and again in same thread are saying I am wrong and they of course are right.
Especially when it comes to personal experience, something that is the most part of a spiritual practice. How do they know when they have no experience or knowledge of someone else experience?
It's like hitting my head into a wall of ignorance.

 

[Heyo]

In the week or so since I come back to RF I noticed even more negativity then before I left.
And often (not always) the discussion derail because a non believer start asking questions that is non related to the OP, where it is very clear that their mission is to debunk any form of personal spiritual belief.

How do this people know they are correct when they can not prove the spiritual experience that others have is real?
What is the purpose of slandering a religion you do not follow your self? Yes I know you do not believe, burn the religious people do. And guess what, the religion is for the religious people to follow not the non religious.

And yes I know some religious people try to hard to convert you. But you can say No thank you. I do not believe, and just leave the discussion

How hard can it be?

First to the title question: How do I know I am right?
I don't. Unless I have bounced off my position off others. That's what debates are for. I present my position and invite others to take it apart. When it holds, I'm more sure to be right, if it doesn't, I have learned even more as I can now be sure the original hypothesis is false.
And, following the Golden Rule, I reciprocate. If someone puts out a hypothesis, I help them gain knowledge by doing my best to 1. understand their position and 2. take it apart.
Yes, I am aware that is not how most people approach a debate.

To the question in the body: How can I deal with people who do the above but skip step 1 (understanding the position) or, even worse, try to derail the debate?
1. Ask them to leave. If that doesn't work
2. Ask a moderator to delete the offending comments. (I have never done this. My questions aren't important enough to rectify such an action.)
Other options:
3. Ignore the comments. (There are a few people I have on mental ignore.)
4. Put them on ignore. (Some people who have personally offended me or are unbearably obnoxious have made it to my "blocked" list.)
And
5. Don't feed the trolls.

Those are the things I can do all by myself. I prefer to start with what is my personal responsibility.

6. Invoke the community.
When I think that my problem is not personal but objective I can ask the community 1. if they also see the problem and 2. request action.

You have done step 6 and my answer is that I don't see the necessity for communal action. That doesn't mean that I think your position is wrong, most likely my view is due to ignorance as I don't frequent the spiritual DIRs and OPs. Maybe you could reduce the audience and ask the question to people who you'd likely encounter in your OPs - most importantly the offenders.

 

[Spirit of Light]

First to the title question: How do I know I am right?
I don't. Unless I have bounced off my position off others. That's what debates are for. I present my position and invite others to take it apart. When it holds, I'm more sure to be right, if it doesn't, I have learned even more as I can now be sure the original hypothesis is false.
And, following the Golden Rule, I reciprocate. If someone puts out a hypothesis, I help them gain knowledge by doing my best to 1. understand their position and 2. take it apart.
Yes, I am aware that is not how most people approach a debate.

To the question in the body: How can I deal with people who do the above but skip step 1 (understanding the position) or, even worse, try to derail the debate?
1. Ask them to leave. If that doesn't work
2. Ask a moderator to delete the offending comments. (I have never done this. My questions aren't important enough to rectify such an action.)
Other options:
3. Ignore the comments. (There are a few people I have on mental ignore.)
4. Put them on ignore. (Some people who have personally offended me or are unbearably obnoxious have made it to my "blocked" list.)
And
5. Don't feed the trolls.

Those are the things I can do all by myself. I prefer to start with what is my personal responsibility.

6. Invoke the community.
When I think that my problem is not personal but objective I can ask the community 1. if they also see the problem and 2. request action.

You have done step 6 and my answer is that I don't see the necessity for communal action. That doesn't mean that I think your position is wrong, most likely my view is due to ignorance as I don't frequent the spiritual DIRs and OPs. Maybe you could reduce the audience and ask the question to people who you'd likely encounter in your OPs - most importantly the offenders.

The problem is that the forum is open for anyone who want to answer, even in dir section there are those who do not belong there (in my view) that enter to not have a constructive discussion.
Of course I put my self on the line of fire with my attitude I know. But honestly I am in RF to discuss with likeminded ( there are some non believers who are very nice, don't get me wrong).

 

[Heyo]

The problem is that the forum is open for anyone who want to answer, even in dir section there are those who do not belong there (in my view) that enter to not have a constructive discussion.
Of course I put my self on the line of fire with my attitude I know. But honestly I am in RF to discuss with likeminded ( there are some non believers who are very nice, don't get me wrong).

I sometimes wish there could be a technical solution. E.g. automatically making an OP moderator of her/his own thread. That way obnoxious people can be excluded from a certain discussion by the OP without that having global consequences.
That function could be somewhat simulated in a group of like minded people. You could all agree on putting a troll on ignore. That way his posts don't clutter the pages of those who want to discuss seriously. (And he'd probably leave. Nothing is more off-putting to a troll than being ignored.) The drawback compared to the technical solution is that the troll is ignored by the participants everywhere, not only in the thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The problem is that the forum is open for anyone who want to answer, even in dir section there are those who do not belong there (in my view) that enter to not have a constructive discussion.
Of course I put my self on the line of fire with my attitude I know. But honestly I am in RF to discuss with likeminded ( there are some non believers who are very nice, don't get me wrong).

Okay, a constructive discussions about atheists versus being religious and spiritual.

There are two ways to views atheists: Simply as a group of humans, who only have one thing in common and that doesn't tell you anything about them as individuals otherwise. So what do atheists have in common? They lack a positive belief in theism.

Or to ascribe them more than that. Not is not the case. So here is how I do it and I will use myself.

Someone(S) to me: Are you religious?
Me(M): Yes.
S: So you are a theist?
M: No.
S: You do believe in souls?
M: No, not personally but I accept that there is a possibility of humans being souls.
S: Do you believe in Objective Authority and Objective Morality?
M: No, not personally but I accept that there is a possibility of those, but I place those with God and I don't claim them for myself.
S: What is God?
M: I don't know and I don't need to know. I have figured I don't need knowledge for that, so I use faith. I can tell you, which God I have faith in, but that says to me nothing about God. It only tells you what I have faith in. I am an agnostic about that. But in a more broad sense I am a cognitive relativist and don't believe in truth, right, knowledge and so on as some people do.

See, I am religious and I believe that humans are scared and with dignity and only God can judge humans as humans in the objective sense. As for spirituality that is to learn to understand and accept the subjective as a part of the world and don't deny it.
Now for all humans capable of thinking about the meaning of the world, life and everything it appears never just to be religious versus non-religious.

The same with being right or wrong. Because in practice right and wrong are also beliefs and not knowledge.

Regards and love
Mikkel

 

[stvdv]

It is about ego if they have never considered that they could be wrong.
I hate to say this, but this is a predominantly Christian stance.
They have a right to believe ONLY they are right as long as they do not inflict that belief upon others.
It they come into my my territory with that belief you had better believe I will tell them what I think.

I go one step further and pray to God that He sends them to Heaven (far away), the sooner the better.

 

[Mindmaster]

In the week or so since I come back to RF I noticed even more negativity then before I left.
And often (not always) the discussion derail because a non believer start asking questions that is non related to the OP, where it is very clear that their mission is to debunk any form of personal spiritual belief.

I neither care if they or right or I am?

It doesn't matter either way... If you enter the conversation for any other reason than helping the other person, you've already lost the only argument that mattered. At least in my view, lol.

The debunkers don't understand faith and religious experience is largely beyond them, and that puts them in the fundamental situation of never being able to understand the 'why'. To some degree, that makes one feel deficient (though it'll never be admitted), so then to feel better about themselves they must attempt to destroy other people's faith. They could have used their indifference to expand the conversation and explore the subject, but no, they're trading it for a cheap win for their egos. It's just trolling, really. (It doesn't break the rules here, but nonetheless that is surely what it is.)

 

[Spirit of Light]

I neither care if they or right or I am?

It doesn't matter either way... If you enter the conversation for any other reason than helping the other person, you've already lost the only argument that mattered. At least in my view, lol.

The debunkers don't understand faith and religious experience is largely beyond them, and that puts them in the fundamental situation of never being able to understand the 'why'. To some degree, that makes one feel deficient (though it'll never be admitted), so then to feel better about themselves they must attempt to destroy other people's faith. They could have used their indifference to expand the conversation and explore the subject, but no, they're trading it for a cheap win for their egos.

Would it not be better to ask politely about how the spiritual can be experienced?
The answer is of course, they must cultivate their own mind to be able to realize the experiences, those experiences does not just pop up the mind must be ready for it, otherwise one can not understand the message

 

[stvdv]

Do you

Recently I said to a woman in an app "I wish this really bad person goes to Heaven soon". And she replied "Oh, but that is not fair, he is so bad, and you wish he goes to Heaven?". I think that's the best wish you can make, then God can take care of this, even while being in Heaven, so he does not have bad company anymore.

And once I read about a Hindu Saint or poet, when asked "you always greet the people friendly, even if the person behaves bad, how come?". And he said "I greet him friendly, and then I pray to God, that I never have to see him again". I liked that idea a lot.