How do we know Krishna, Buddha or Moses existed?

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, ManSinha.

"Ik Oankaar Satnaam Kartaa Purakh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Moorat Ajoonee Saibhan Gur Prasaad"
One Universal • The Name of Truth • Doer of All • No Fear • No Hate • Timeless Form • Not affected by the circle of life and death • Self-Existent • Realized by the grace of the true Guru.
(Corrected Wikipedia translation)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@ManSinha You might have missed my point. My point was not to claim any truth for what Shoghi Effendi said about Baha'u'llah. My point was that it looks to me like Baha'is who call Krishna a "Manifestation of God" are contradicting Shoghi Effendi, who according to their scriptures is an authorized interpreter of their scriptures. Shoghi Effendi calls Baha'u'llah a Manifestaition of Krishna.

This from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá;

"Blessed souls whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, or Muhammad were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?"
('Abdu'l-Bahá from a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

"The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love. None has ever thought that war and hate are good. Every one agrees in saying that love and kindness are best." Abdu'l-Baha : Paris Talks"("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p. 35)

"..The Jews await the Messiah, the Christians the return of Christ, the Moslem's the Mahdi, the Buddhists the fifth Buddha, the Zoroastrians Shah Bahram, the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna, and the Atheists -- a better social organization! Bahá'u'lláh represents all these, and thus destroys the rivalries and the enmities of the different religions; reconciles them in their primitive purity, and frees them from the corruption of dogmas and rites." Abdu'l-Baha : Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha Volume 3

Compilations : Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Personally I think that it has a wonderful message in it for all the people of the world, especially people who care about its future, a message that can be seen in the Baha'i community itself and nowhere else, no matter if any of its stories are true or not. The more people see all its defects, the better it is for that message.

There. The cat is out of the bag. The message is to proselytize. Would I get a retainer or it is pay per post?

.. and frees them from the corruption of dogmas and rites."

What arrogance! First get rid of your own dogma and provide any proof of your God or its manifestation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What arrogance! First get rid of your own dogma and provide any proof of your God or its manifestation.

Or it is the best of advice. So time will tell. Stay happy and well.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

This is interesting. I searched for this quotation:

Blessed souls—whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muḥammad—were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?

According to one source (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects) that is from a Tablet of Abdu'l-Baha written in Persian. According to another source (Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 343-348) it's from a talk that Abdu'l-Baha gave in California in 1912!

Also, in some places Abdu'l-Baha seems to be saying that Confucius was a prophet, but a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi says that he was not a prophet. (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects)

I still have doubts about calling Krishna a Manifestation of God, but I can see good reasons now for Baha'is to think that.

I've decided now to follow this advice, which may or may not be from a Tablet of Abdu'l-Baha (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects)

"Now it is not the time when we discuss concerning the stations and positions of those who are passed away."

 

[Jim]

If Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi accept Krishna as historical, you cannot do otherwise.

That might be true, but I'm still not convinced that they accept Krishna as historical. The only thing I'm convinced of is that I don't know if Krishna was an actual person in history or not. I can understand better now why some Baha'is think that he was.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh, you are a doubter - one of the munafiqun.

 

[Jim]

Oh, you are a doubter - one of the munafiqun.

Hypocrisy

That might be what some Baha'is think I am, and there are some that look like that to me.

 

[Jim]

Personally I think that it has a wonderful message in it for all the people of the world, especially people who care about its future, a message that can be seen in the Baha'i community itself and nowhere else, no matter if any of its stories are true or not. The more people see all its defects, the better it is for that message.

There. The cat is out of the bag.

I said that for some other Baha'is. I want them to know that I feel that way.

 

[CG Didymus]

This from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá;

"Blessed souls whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, or Muhammad were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?"
('Abdu'l-Bahá from a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

"The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love. None has ever thought that war and hate are good. Every one agrees in saying that love and kindness are best." Abdu'l-Baha : Paris Talks"("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p. 35)

"..The Jews await the Messiah, the Christians the return of Christ, the Moslem's the Mahdi, the Buddhists the fifth Buddha, the Zoroastrians Shah Bahram, the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna, and the Atheists -- a better social organization! Bahá'u'lláh represents all these, and thus destroys the rivalries and the enmities of the different religions; reconciles them in their primitive purity, and frees them from the corruption of dogmas and rites." Abdu'l-Baha : Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha Volume 3

Compilations : Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects

Regards Tony

From the Gita:

Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)

Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven. (2.32)

If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. (2.33)

People will talk about your disgrace forever. To the honored, dishonor is worse than death. (2.34)

The great warriors will think that you have retreated from the battle out of fear. Those who have greatly esteemed you will lose respect for you. (2.35)

Your enemies will speak many unmentionable words and scorn your ability. What could be more painful than this? (2.36)

You will go to heaven if killed, or you will enjoy the earth if victorious. Therefore, get up with a determination to fight, O Arjuna. (2.37)

Treating pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat alike, engage yourself in your duty. By doing your duty this way you will not incur sin.​

All kinds of contradictions to the Baha'i Faith in this. Just before this, Krishna tells Arjuna:

Know That, by which all this (universe) is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can destroy the indestructible (Atma) . (2.17)

Bodies of the eternal, imperishable, and incomprehensible soul are said to be perishable. Therefore, fight, O Arjuna. (2.18)

The one who thinks that Atma is a slayer, and the one who thinks that Atma is slain, both are ignorant, because Atma neither slays nor is slain. (2.19)

The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20)

O Arjuna, how can a person who knows that the Atma is indestructible, eternal, unborn, and imperishable, kill anyone or cause anyone to be killed? (2.21)

Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly Atma acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies.
​

So we have the "Atma" being the eternal. The body dies and this eternal Atman gets reborn into new bodies. Krishna uses this to convince Arjuna to fight and kill. How do you, as a Baha'i, explain this?

​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is interesting. I searched for this quotation:

According to one source (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects) that is from a Tablet of Abdu'l-Baha written in Persian. According to another source (Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 343-348) it's from a talk that Abdu'l-Baha gave in California in 1912!

Also, in some places Abdu'l-Baha seems to be saying that Confucius was a prophet, but a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi says that he was not a prophet. (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects)

I still have doubts about calling Krishna a Manifestation of God, but I can see good reasons now for Baha'is to think that.

I've decided now to follow this advice, which may or may not be from a Tablet of Abdu'l-Baha (Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects)

"Now it is not the time when we discuss concerning the stations and positions of those who are passed away."

I see the key here is all Good is from God and all the rest is from our own selves. Thus those that inspired lasting virtue based faith, must have mirrored a lot of God.

Another consideration is translation. It may be an issue if it was not translated by Shoghi Effendi. A lot of old tablets need another look at translation.

Look at the old translation of this quote in the Seven Valleys;

"..Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form When within thee the universe is folded?..."

then the new translation;

"..Dost thou deem thyself a small and puny form, When thou foldest within thyself the greater world?.."

Now that changes thoughts, does it not?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From the Gita:

Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)

Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven. (2.32)

If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. (2.33)

People will talk about your disgrace forever. To the honored, dishonor is worse than death. (2.34)

The great warriors will think that you have retreated from the battle out of fear. Those who have greatly esteemed you will lose respect for you. (2.35)

Your enemies will speak many unmentionable words and scorn your ability. What could be more painful than this? (2.36)

You will go to heaven if killed, or you will enjoy the earth if victorious. Therefore, get up with a determination to fight, O Arjuna. (2.37)

Treating pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat alike, engage yourself in your duty. By doing your duty this way you will not incur sin.​

All kinds of contradictions to the Baha'i Faith in this. Just before this, Krishna tells Arjuna:

Know That, by which all this (universe) is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can destroy the indestructible (Atma) . (2.17)

Bodies of the eternal, imperishable, and incomprehensible soul are said to be perishable. Therefore, fight, O Arjuna. (2.18)

The one who thinks that Atma is a slayer, and the one who thinks that Atma is slain, both are ignorant, because Atma neither slays nor is slain. (2.19)

The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20)

O Arjuna, how can a person who knows that the Atma is indestructible, eternal, unborn, and imperishable, kill anyone or cause anyone to be killed? (2.21)

Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly Atma acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies.
​

So we have the "Atma" being the eternal. The body dies and this eternal Atman gets reborn into new bodies. Krishna uses this to convince Arjuna to fight and kill. How do you, as a Baha'i, explain this?

I see no contradiction when balanced with what Baha'u'llah has offered, as I see a lot of hidden truths that Baha'u'llah has alluded to. That would require another discussion.

I remember in a 10000 + thread offering to explore other meanings of popular held beliefs and passages from all scriptures, using the keys given by Baha'u'llah, @InvestigateTruth has also posted threads to initiate this.

How have they worked out?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

None has ever thought that war and hate are good.

I see no contradiction when balanced with what Baha'u'llah has offered, as I see a lot of hidden truths that Baha'u'llah has alluded to.

From the Gita:

Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)

Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven. (2.32)

If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. (2.33)
​

So Krishna is telling Arjuna to fight. So manifestations do tell their followers to fight in wars sometimes, right or wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From the Gita:

Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)

Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven. (2.32)

If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. (2.33)
​

So Krishna is telling Arjuna to fight. So manifestations do tell their followers to fight in wars sometimes, right or wrong?

Correct. Defence had always been allowed right up to Muhammad.

The war that is not righteous, is what is being talked about. War based on greed predudice and hate.

None that fight a righteous war, want to undetake that action. They would prefer to talk.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

For example, We need to distinguish between the Religion that Jesus established and its denominations. That is my point. Those who say there are thousands of Religions, are using the term Religion, interchangeable with denominations. Christianity is the Religion that Jesus established. It is counted as one, because Jesus Himself did not establish thousands of denominations or churches. Those who believe in Christ as the Messiah know that. Same with Islam. Muhammad did not establish sects of Islam. He said Religion is one. Ask Muslims too. They won't say, their Religion is 70. Islam is one.
In Bahai faith, only a Messenger or Manifestation of God establishes a Religion, not ordinary men.

So which of these 9 Baha'i accepted religions do Jainism, Sikhism, or any of the many indigenous religions belong to?

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know. I never cared enough, myself, to search for them, and I still don't. Would you like me to?

You don't have to. Millions of Hindus who know the Gita really well would say there is no reference whatsoever to Baha'u'llah. It is pure and simple Baha'i concoction only.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can tell you - that a lot of the Universal thoughts and ideas espoused are also espoused in Sikhism -

And in Hinduism, Jainism, and Hinduism even earlier.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't have to. Millions of Hindus who know the Gita really well would say there is no reference whatsoever to Baha'u'llah. It is pure and simple Baha'i concoction only.

That can be seen in the opposite way, as a Baha'i has faith that another Avatar has arisen. Baha'u'llah, an Avatar, as promised, has said we would find if we looked.

We can also consider millions of Jews still do not see Christ nor Muhammad in their scriptures, likewise Christians do not see Muhammad in the Bible and the Muslims do not see Baha'u'llah in the Quran.

Yet the Faiths are practiced.

Thus we will or we will not look, the choice is ours.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

George Washigngton really existed. Did he really throw a silver dollar across thd Potomac?...Some think "Jesus" really really walked on water.

The lengths some people will go to for silver dollar!

 

[Jim]

For those that believe, there is plenty to cause them to think the Baha'i Faith is real and the truth. But, there's plenty of things that are a concern to people.

Not all of my Baha'i friends stayed in it. Some of the ones that did, don't do much. They are very much like the nominal Christians that just go to Church once a week and that's the end of their commitment to Jesus. Can that change the world? If people within the Faith don't get up and help change society for the better, then how is the Baha'i Faith going to make those changes? In the '70's, I heard Baha'is say that whole villages had converted to the Baha'i Faith. What happened to them? Are they still all Baha'i? I was told the "lessor peace" was be established by the year 2000. What happened? Now I hear that was only pilgrim notes? But didn't those pilgrims hear it from Shoghi Effendi... or is that not true?

So what's troubling is too much talk about how great the religion is, but it's not translating into the real world. And I blame Baha'is themselves. They join and what? Expect other Baha'is, their leaders, to make the changes? I don't know? What are Baha'is doing? If they have the answers then live them. Show the world that the Baha'i Faith does work. But all we hear is how our old beliefs are wrong. That our old religions are dead and dying. But what does the Baha'i Faith offer? Is it alive and growing? Is it leading the way to make the world better? Or, is it just a bunch of talk. And, just another religion with most of its people just following... quietly, doing very little in living by its beliefs?

You are the most honest and sincere and deepest person amongst those calling themselves Baha'i. Most of the others are great people, but they aren't connecting with people because they only preach one thing, Baha'i. But it's not a version of the Baha'i Faith that draws people to it... but it pushes them away, because it is telling them that the Baha'i way is the only way and that their old religion is the wrong way.

But saying that is not working. It's not working because Baha'is can't keep saying how all religions are one, and at the same time tell people that their old religion is wrong... and that their old religion is what Baha'is say it is. Anyway, even though I am asking a lot of rhetorical questions, I'd love to hear what you think.

I'm reading this again, looking for clues about what you care deeply about, that you might like to discuss with me. I thought maybe all this was only to get some things off your chest, but now I'm wondering if one of the things you care deeply about is what's wrong with Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith. Maybe you saw some hope in it for some things you care deeply about. Maybe you still haven't given up all hope for that. Could that be one of your reasons for talking to me about it?

Can that change the world? If people within the Faith don't get up and help change society for the better ...

Is it leading the way to make the world better?

Are those things that you care deeply about? Changing the world, making it better, helping to change society for the better? Would you like to discuss those with me?

Do you have a vision of your own for a better world? If so, I would like to see it posted in a thread I started about that, in the Social World forum.