How do we know Krishna, Buddha or Moses existed?

[InvestigateTruth]

It is no "discussion" if you pay no attention to what others
say, and attempt to claim ownership of the definition of
what "religion" is. You dont get to do that whether you
are bahai or baluchitherium.

For your info:

Religious denomination - Wikipedia

 

[ManSinha]

According to Shoghi Effendi, the Bhagavad-Gita refers to Baha'u'llah as the "Most Great Spirit," the "Tenth Avatar," the "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna."

Exact Gita quotes please with authentic (IOW NOT Baha'i) references.....thank you

 

[Audie]

For your info:

Religious denomination - Wikipedia

You must think we are really stupid.

For YOUR info, we are not.
Also for your info:
"religious demonination", and, "religion"
are not the same thing.

There are thousands of religions, more popping
up every day. Regardless of your "definition".

If you want someone to discuss this
with you, on your level, round up some
RFers who contend that atheism is a religion.

 

[Jim]

@ManSinha You might have missed my point. My point was not to claim any truth for what Shoghi Effendi said about Baha'u'llah. My point was that it looks to me like Baha'is who call Krishna a "Manifestation of God" are contradicting Shoghi Effendi, who according to their scriptures is an authorized interpreter of their scriptures. Shoghi Effendi calls Baha'u'llah a Manifestaition of Krishna.

 

[ManSinha]

@ManSinha You might have missed my point. My point was not to claim any truth for what Shoghi Effendi said about Baha'u'llah. My point was that it looks to me like Baha'is who call Krishna a "Manifestation of God" are contradicting Shoghi Effendi, who according to their scriptures is an authorized interpreter of their scriptures.

I was merely asking for the quotes referred to by Shoghi Effendi when he states that the Gita in anyway mentions Baha'u'llah - short of that - well - you know what I want to say

 

[Jim]

I was merely asking for the quotes referred to by Shoghi Effendi when he states that the Gita in anyway mentions Baha'u'llah.

I don't know. I never cared enough, myself, to search for them, and I still don't. Would you like me to?

 

[Jim]

@ManSinha I searched on one Bhagavad Gita website for "Most Great Spirit," "Tenth Avatar," and "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna," and didn't find any of them. When I did a web search for those with "Bhagavad Gita," all the results were from Baha'i sources.

 

[ManSinha]

@ManSinha I searched on one Bhagavad Gita website for "Most Great Spirit," "Tenth Avatar," and "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna," and didn't find any of them. When I did a web search for those with "Bhagavad Gita," all the results were from Baha'i sources.

I am not surprised - and unfortunately stuff like that builds in to the narrative that @Vinayaka and @CG Didymus have been stating that there is a sense of insecurity that causes Baha'i's to try and build up their religion more than it really is - in my opinion a kinder gentler attempt at at the Shia Shakya of Islam but still with a sentence in the Kitab-i-Aqdas where it is said it is okay to burn someone for committing arson.

I can tell you - that a lot of the Universal thoughts and ideas espoused are also espoused in Sikhism - which was formalized a mere 150 years prior to 1844 - but where there were 10 prophets that appeared over a 300 year period.

For me - and me only - when I search for the raison d'être of the Baha'i faith - I really do not find any - and pathetic attempts by the likes of @InvestigateTruth to equate the teachings / persona of the prophet or the religion with the established ones only adds to my belief about the inherent insecurity of some of the followers and its desperate attempt to show that "Yes we matter - our religion matters" - see my running debate with @Trailblazer who has been at a loss to explain her why her beliefs make intuitive sense to anyone not a Baha'i - other posters than myself have managed to catch her contradicting herself or admitting she does not know the answers - be that as it may

You will not find anyone from the dharmic faiths pushing their agenda so vigorously as some of the Baha'i's on here seem to do. Yes we debate and put forth counter points and ask questions - but never try and equate our prophets and beliefs with those of anyone else.

 

[Jim]

"Yes we matter - our religion matters"

Personally I think that it has a wonderful message in it for all the people of the world, especially people who care about its future, a message that can be seen in the Baha'i community itself and nowhere else, no matter if any of its stories are true or not. The more people see all its defects, the better it is for that message.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That appears to me to contradict the view of Krishna as a Manifestation of God, and says nothing to me about whether Krishna existed or not.

If Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi accept Krishna as historical, you cannot do otherwise. Do you think you are better than them?

When I did a web search for those with "Bhagavad Gita," all the results were from Baha'i sources.

That is the irony.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jesus became god in 325 AD.
Holy Spirit became god in 380 AD.

There were manipulations even before that, in Paul's time. God's word is lost unless you accept the latest God/prophet/son/messenger/Manifestation/Mahdi on the show. Perhaps this page would help: People claiming to be God - Search results - Wikipedia

 

[Jim]

If Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi accept Krishna as historical.

In my mind, calling Baha'u'llah a Manifestation of Krisha doesn't make Krishna historical, any more than calling Gautama Buddha an avatar of Vishnu makes Vishnu historical.

 

[ManSinha]

Personally I think that it has a wonderful message in it for all the people of the world, especially people who care about its future, a message that can be seen in the Baha'i community itself and nowhere else, no matter if any of its stories are true or not.

Oh the arrogance! You mean to tell me you have studied deeply the world's religions other than Baha'ism, Christianity and Islam in order to rationally make such a claim? If not then your statement is dead in the water.

The more people see all its defects, the better it is for that message.

How so? It is yet another flawed Abrahamic religion that wants to pass itself of as better than others - it may be fine for the believers but how do you convince others to join an admittedly "defective" religion?

 

[Jim]

@ManSinha The message I'm talking about is in the community itself, not in any of its beliefs, principles or practices, and people don't need to join it, or even approve of anything in it, to see the message and benefit from it. It's hidden in plain sight for all to see, like the purloined letter, or a Magic Eye picture. As I said, the more people see and publicize the defects in the community, including the online feuding, the better it will help the message spread.

 

[MJFlores]

There were manipulations even before that, in Paul's time. God's word is lost unless you accept the latest God/prophet/son/messenger/Manifestation/Mahdi on the show. Perhaps this page would help: People claiming to be God - Search results - Wikipedia

Manipulations....gee I don't get your line of thought.

But whatever, the Catholics are fond of making statues and painting about Jesus
The thing is nobody is actually sure about how Jesus looks like.
They also have the blue Jesus

Maybe this Jesus is also suffering the rare genetic disease called methemoglobinemia.
And having an exposed heart like that is dangerous and is an emergency medical case.
Probably that Jesus is a relative of Krishna because of the blue features.

At any rate, their Jesus is different from mine.
My Jesus is written in the Bible.

I do not believe in manifestations
What is that by the way?
God in disguise? Why would God do that?
God is God and does not change.

 

[ManSinha]

@Jim - you seem to want to explore what is on offer - take a look at this - Wikipedia is the mere tip of the iceberg - there are deep expositions sometimes by scholars from the west as well those from the subcontinent. The range of belief is breathtaking in its freedom and in its approach to a single universal divine. As a current mystic who is famous for his pithy comments noted - "If you want to believe god is in a tree - that is fine; if you want to believe that god is in a cow - that is fine; if you want to believe that god comes along as a handsome dusky disc wielding warrior - that is fine and if you do not want to believe there is a god - well that is fine too"

Personally, having looked at the range of major world religions - the only one in my estimation (and I have not studied even a decent fraction) is Native American beliefs in the Great Spirit that allows for the range of beliefs instead of a one size fits all approach

 

[CG Didymus]

Those look like rhetorical questions to me. If not, if you're really asking me, if you're really curious about what I think, let me know. Only, I won't try to substantiate my views. All I would be doing would be trying to help you understand them if you want to.

For those that believe, there is plenty to cause them to think the Baha'i Faith is real and the truth. But, there's plenty of things that are a concern to people.

Not all of my Baha'i friends stayed in it. Some of the ones that did, don't do much. They are very much like the nominal Christians that just go to Church once a week and that's the end of their commitment to Jesus. Can that change the world? If people within the Faith don't get up and help change society for the better, then how is the Baha'i Faith going to make those changes? In the '70's, I heard Baha'is say that whole villages had converted to the Baha'i Faith. What happened to them? Are they still all Baha'i? I was told the "lessor peace" was be established by the year 2000. What happened? Now I hear that was only pilgrim notes? But didn't those pilgrims hear it from Shoghi Effendi... or is that not true?

So what's troubling is too much talk about how great the religion is, but it's not translating into the real world. And I blame Baha'is themselves. They join and what? Expect other Baha'is, their leaders, to make the changes? I don't know? What are Baha'is doing? If they have the answers then live them. Show the world that the Baha'i Faith does work. But all we hear is how our old beliefs are wrong. That our old religions are dead and dying. But what does the Baha'i Faith offer? Is it alive and growing? Is it leading the way to make the world better? Or, is it just a bunch of talk. And, just another religion with most of its people just following... quietly, doing very little in living by its beliefs?

You are the most honest and sincere and deepest person amongst those calling themselves Baha'i. Most of the others are great people, but they aren't connecting with people because they only preach one thing, Baha'i. But it's not a version of the Baha'i Faith that draws people to it... but it pushes them away, because it is telling them that the Baha'i way is the only way and that their old religion is the wrong way.

But saying that is not working. It's not working because Baha'is can't keep saying how all religions are one, and at the same time tell people that their old religion is wrong... and that their old religion is what Baha'is say it is. Anyway, even though I am asking a lot of rhetorical questions, I'd love to hear what you think.

 

[CG Didymus]

For example, We need to distinguish between the Religion that Jesus established and its denominations. That is my point. Those who say there are thousands of Religions, are using the term Religion, interchangeable with denominations. Christianity is the Religion that Jesus established. It is counted as one, because Jesus Himself did not establish thousands of denominations or churches. Those who believe in Christ as the Messiah know that. Same with Islam. Muhammad did not establish sects of Islam. He said Religion is one. Ask Muslims too. They won't say, their Religion is 70. Islam is one.
In Bahai faith, only a Messenger or Manifestation of God establishes a Religion, not ordinary men.

I thought there was only one religion, the religion of God? So wouldn't all so called religions be denominations of that one true religion? No, we don't believe that do we? The religions are different. Although, some are very related. So, since the religion that was based on the Hebrew Bible came to be called Judaism, that is the foundational religion of some others... like the religion that developed around Jesus. But, isn't that religion an extension of Judaism? Isn't Jesus, supposedly, the Messiah of Judaism? So isn't Christianity just a sect of Judaism? Your own teachings say religion is a progression, so why call Christianity a separate religion? Then the same with Islam and the Baha'i Faith, they are just building off of and progressing from Judaism.

So that's one religion. Then what do you with Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Taoism and all those others? Do you want to combine some of them too? Or, do we respect and acknowledge all the different religious expressions and beliefs... Knowing and understanding that many resulted in trying to improve and progress from the old religious beliefs?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In my mind, calling Baha'u'llah a Manifestation of Krisha doesn't make Krishna historical, any more than calling Gautama Buddha an avatar of Vishnu makes Vishnu historical.

God (for theists, I am a strong atheist. My personal views will differ) is hyper-historical. He is eternal and unchanging, all mighty, all knowing, present everywhere. Nothing wrong with Buddha being a manifestation of Vishnu or Bahaullah being a manifestation of Krishna. Actually, in Hindu 'Advaita' philosophy (which I follow), even a grain of sand is full representation of Brahman (I am sure you know that). Even Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Osama, Caliph (what was his name) Ibrahim are none other than Brahman. Our books say "Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti' (What exists is one, there is no second).

 

[CG Didymus]

I am not surprised - and unfortunately stuff like that builds in to the narrative that @Vinayaka and @CG Didymus have been stating that there is a sense of insecurity that causes Baha'i's to try and build up their religion more than it really is - in my opinion a kinder gentler attempt at at the Shia Shakya of Islam but still with a sentence in the Kitab-i-Aqdas where it is said it is okay to burn someone for committing arson.

I can tell you - that a lot of the Universal thoughts and ideas espoused are also espoused in Sikhism - which was formalized a mere 150 years prior to 1844 - but where there were 10 prophets that appeared over a 300 year period.

For me - and me only - when I search for the raison d'être of the Baha'i faith - I really do not find any - and pathetic attempts by the likes of @InvestigateTruth to equate the teachings / persona of the prophet or the religion with the established ones only adds to my belief about the inherent insecurity of some of the followers and its desperate attempt to show that "Yes we matter - our religion matters" - see my running debate with @Trailblazer who has been at a loss to explain her why her beliefs make intuitive sense to anyone not a Baha'i - other posters than myself have managed to catch her contradicting herself or admitting she does not know the answers - be that as it may

You will not find anyone from the dharmic faiths pushing their agenda so vigorously as some of the Baha'i's on here seem to do. Yes we debate and put forth counter points and ask questions - but never try and equate our prophets and beliefs with those of anyone else.

Did I ever tell you how much I appreciate you and what you bring to these threads? Thanks so much for posting you thoughts and opinions. You, Audie, Vinayaka, Siti and many others really make these threads such a pleasure to read and participate in. Oh yeah, since they are started by Baha'is, they are all right too. We couldn't have all gotten here without them. Thanks again.