How do we know Krishna, Buddha or Moses existed?

[TransmutingSoul]

@Vinayaka @CG Didymus I didn't say, or mean, that CG hates Baha'is. What I said was that he would rather spend his time complaining about some Baha'i Faiths that he hates. I agree that "hate" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was, some Baha'i Faiths that he disapproves of.

I see another clarification would be helpful also Jim. That is the use of "Other Baha'i Faiths".

The Baha'i Faith is one and not divided into other Faiths and this is very important to note. I see you like to display your feelings and as such I will tell you I am very sad every time you talk about more than one Baha'i Faith. I see that you are talking about the different views of that One Faith, thus I also see that is how it should be explained. It must also be noted that there are unchangeable aspects of any Faith and if people object to those, there is little else one can say or do, but to leave it at that.

In the past any strongly different veiw would have caused a division and a split to form another path. This can not happen to the Baha'i Faith and we should always see our Oneness in this cause, this is the Unity in Diversity we are asked to share.

The greatest advice is to always foster the good, not to dwell on what has not been so good. The biblical advice of removing the plank from our own eyes, before trying to remove a splinter from another eye.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

I see another clarification would be helpful also Jim. That is the use of "Other Baha'i Faiths".

The Baha'i Faith is one and not divided into other Faiths and this is very important to note. I see you like to display your feelings and as such I will tell you I am very sad every time you talk about more than one Baha'i Faith. I see that you are talking about the different views of that One Faith, thus I also see that is how it should be explained. It must also be noted that there are unchangeable aspects of any Faith and if people object to those, there is little else one can say or do, but to leave it at that.

In the past any strongly different veiw would have caused a division and a split to form another path. This can not happen to the Baha'i Faith and we should always see our Oneness in this cause, this is the Unity in Diversity we are asked to share.

The greatest advice is to always foster the good, not to dwell on what has not been so good. The biblical advice of removing the plank from our own eyes, before trying to remove a splinter from another eye.

Regards Tony

Wrong again

Like any other Faith where division amongst their followers is natural, Bahai Faith is no exception to it. How much the Bahai leaders may claim that there is no division amongst Bahais the fact is that Baha’i Faith does have different denominations all calling them as the TRUE Faith . The fact is that in the small span of 160 years Bahai Faith has seen more divisions than any other religion. (emphasis not mine)

 

[Jim]

"...O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting..."

I have tried to do that all my life ...

Aupmanyav, I'm glad, glad to tears, to see you saying that. I cherish that. I don't know how to tell you how much that means to me. I don't mean that it surprises me. It doesn't surprise me at all. It's just ... just ... seeing you saying that is like an oasis in the desert for me. I think I'll just sit here and drink in the water for a while, before I venture back into the desert.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wrong again

View attachment 28105

Like any other Faith where division amongst their followers is natural, Bahai Faith is no exception to it. How much the Bahai leaders may claim that there is no division amongst Bahais the fact is that Baha’i Faith does have different denominations all calling them as the TRUE Faith . The fact is that in the small span of 160 years Bahai Faith has seen more divisions than any other religion. (emphasis not mine)

The internet can be very deceptive. One person, or a few can make it look like there is a Faith when there is none. Such is the sources you have provided.

There has been many attempts to divide the Faith, thus what greater proof can God give, that it has shown it stands undivided, despite all of the attempts that would have suceeded and did suceed in religions of the past.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

The internet can be very deceptive. One person, or a few can make it look like there is a Faith when there is none. Such is the sources you have provided.

There has been many attempts to divide the Faith, thus what greater proof can God give, that it has shown it stands undivided, despite all of the attempts that would have suceeded and did suceed in religions of the past.

Regards Tony

All you do is make assertions and claims - I have not seen you providing any counter sources reliable or otherwise

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All you do is make assertions and claims - I have not seen you providing any counter sources reliable or otherwise

Thats just it, I can not supply a link to an active Baha'i Faith, that is not the One Baha'i Faith, pure and simple.

One might find a link to Covenant Breakers attempts to split the Faith, but they will not attract many people of pure hearted faith, as they are already built on a deception of a very clear and powerful covernant given by Baha'u'llah.

I can see why you would like to find what you are looking for. You could consider that the Baha'i have nothing to hide anout this subject and are being as honest on this subject as they can be.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible tells you how;

"Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

At 76, one may have to speed up the search.....

The heart holds the keys.

Regards Tony

I think it is understandable people's reluctance to take your word for it and the words of your prophet. The Jews had prophecies too. And, some joined up with and followed Jesus. What did that get them? A religion that even Baha'is say is way, way off base. So how were the Jews that converted to Christianity better off spiritually than those that stayed with Judaism?

Same thing with the Jews and Christians that converted to Islam. What did they gain compared to those that stayed with their old religious beliefs? So will it be the same now?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it is understandable people's reluctance to take your word for it and the words of your prophet. The Jews had prophecies too. And, some joined up with and followed Jesus. What did that get them? A religion that even Baha'is say is way, way off base. So how were the Jews that converted to Christianity better off spiritually than those that stayed with Judaism?

Same thing with the Jews and Christians that converted to Islam. What did they gain compared to those that stayed with their old religious beliefs? So will it be the same now?

CG please do not even consider taking my word for it.

As to seeing if what Baha'u'llah offered was good advice, then they would have to consider each point in their own hearts.

I see Faith is not about what it gives to us, it is what we can give to others. The giving is its own reward.

I also do not consider any Faith to be way off base. I see it as just a small change in ones frame of reference and truths can become much more clear.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If Baha'is want to bring peace and harmony to the world, start by being the unifiers between the arguing and fighting that goes on between people in the different religions.

One of their teachings is something about if religion is the cause of disunity, then we're better off without it. So can Baha'is truly respect and understand you and how you believe? I think they can.

What I said was that he would rather spend his time complaining about some Baha'i Faiths that he hates. I agree that "hate" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was, some Baha'i Faiths that he disapproves of.

Did you catch that from the post to Vinayaka? That's the big problem. To many of us it seems like all the threads started by Baha'is are a set up. The thread gets people to respond, then the Baha'i hits them with the teachings and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. What's bad, though, is that it's not bringing people of different religions together... it's pushing them away.

Do you, as a Baha'i, believe all religions are one? Do you believe all people of all religions should love and respect each other? Any Baha'i would probably answer "yes". But then, Baha'i also believe that every single religion, other than their own, is teaching false beliefs and has false practices. And the worst, Baha'is believe these people in the other religions must be spiritually blind not to recognize that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of everybody's religion.

Some of us question that. Just a few posts before this a Baha'i is pretty much telling a person that if they have a pure heart and are truly seeking they will find the truth... that truth is obviously the Baha'i Faith and not the truth that is within their own religion.

 

[Jim]

"One person, or a few can make it look like there is a Faith when there is none."
Or like there is only one, when there are many.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some of us question that. Just a few posts before this a Baha'i is pretty much telling a person that if they have a pure heart and are truly seeking they will find the truth... that truth is obviously the Baha'i Faith and not the truth that is within their own religion

That is not what that passage says to me. To me it says one will be gifted the Truth, no matter where it dawns from, it is timeless.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

CG please do not even consider taking my word for it.

As to seeing if what Baha'u'llah offered was good advice, then they would have to consider each point in their own hearts.

I see Faith is not about what it gives to us, it is what we can give to others. The giving is its own reward.

I also do not consider any Faith to be way off base. I see it as just a small change in ones frame of reference and truths can become much more clear.

Regards Tony

Well, things like not believing in reincarnation with Hindus, Buddhist, and it sounds like Sikhs too... and telling Christians that Jesus is dead and buried and never physically came back to life, I would say that Baha'i do believe those religious beliefs are way off base.

As far as Baha'u'llah offering good advice, sure, lots of things are wonderful and great... But there are many great spiritual teachers. Like the ones my Christian friends have. He's called the Holy Spirit, The Comforter, The Spirit of Truth. He guides them into all truth. The truth about Jesus. But you and I kind of question that. In fact, don't Baha'is say they are off base with their beliefs about the Holy Spirit? That the real Spirit of Truth is Baha'u'llah? If that's true, then couldn't you say they are quite a ways off base?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"One person, or a few can make it look like there is a Faith when there is none."
Or like there is only one, when there are many.

Great thing is, there are many ways to approach each subject, I always liked the talk by Tom Price and the explanation about 'Frame of Reference' and "Inattentional Blindness".

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, things like not believing in reincarnation with Hindus, Buddhist, and it sounds like Sikhs too... and telling Christians that Jesus is dead and buried and never physically came back to life, I would say that Baha'i do believe those religious beliefs are way off base.

As far as Baha'u'llah offering good advice, sure, lots of things are wonderful and great... But there are many great spiritual teachers. Like the ones my Christian friends have. He's called the Holy Spirit, The Comforter, The Spirit of Truth. He guides them into all truth. The truth about Jesus. But you and I kind of question that. In fact, don't Baha'is say they are off base with their beliefs about the Holy Spirit? That the real Spirit of Truth is Baha'u'llah? If that's true, then couldn't you say they are quite a ways off base?

While we are alive the game is still in progress. No one is caught off base until you are judged out. Until that day, we keep playing the game.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not what that passage says to me. To me it says one will be gifted the Truth, no matter where it dawns from, it is timeless.

Regards Tony

This passage?
"Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Hmmm, Christians tell that if I knock Jesus will answer. They tell me that Jesus is the Truth. And, I'll bet you if we looked at the context in the NT, that's what it would point to, because the NT is written by Christians for Christians and doesn't have anything good to say about any other religion. Which, for a lot of us, is a big strike against it. In a way, that kind of puts in a tough spot. It's either totally true or totally false.

That's nice that the Baha'i Faith tries to reconcile Christianity with all the other religions. But, to do that, Baha'is have to go against a whole bunch of NT teachings. If a Christian says how great Jesus is... that he healed the sick, turned water to wine, walked on water and, of course, rose from the dead... Baha'is say no, those were all symbolic, never happened.

So to take a passage from the Bible or the NT and interpret it in a way that is meaningful to you, go ahead. But it still don't make you, as a Baha'i, a believer in the Bible or the NT. Just a quoter.

 

[CG Didymus]

While we are alive the game is still in progress. No one is caught off base until you are judged out. Until that day, we keep playing the game.

Regards Tony

That's the problem. Baha'is clearly don't believe many things in the other religions. They have said that things were added in and misinterpreted Other things, like verses that are written as if they were historical events, were taken literal when they should have been interpreted as symbolic. Yes, there is a game going on. Who is telling the truth? Baha'is, at the same time, say "everybody has the truth" and "we have the truth". And Baha'is see no contradiction in that? I think the game might be rigged. You win either way and I'm stuck out in leftfield somewhere.

 

[Jim]

Do you, as a Baha'i, believe all religions are one?

No.

Do you believe all people of all religions should love and respect each other?

I don't believe anything. I have some ideas, views, and ways of thinking, but I don't believe anything, or at least I try not to. I want all people of all religions to love and respect each other, I think it will happen some day, and I want to do all I can to help it happen.

Baha'i also believe that every single religion, other than their own, is teaching false beliefs and has false practices.

Maybe some Baha'is believe that, but if so, I'm not one of them. It looks to me like all religions, including all the ones that people here call "Baha'i Faith," are teaching false beliefs and have false practices.

And the worst, Baha'is believe these people in the other religions must be spiritually blind not to recognize that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of everybody's religion.

I think that prejudices and other kinds of blindness have a lot to do with people rejecting Baha'u'llah, or even refusing to give Him a fair hearing, but I think that Baha'is can be just as blind in all those ways as anyone else.

Just a few posts before this a Baha'i is pretty much telling a person that if they have a pure heart and are truly seeking they will find the truth... that truth is obviously the Baha'i Faith and not the truth that is within their own religion.

CG, what do you want from me? An apology? Reparations? What do you want from me? I've done everything I could think of to try to help improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha'is in Internet discussions. If you have any better ideas for me, tell me, and maybe I'll try them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's just ... just ... seeing you saying that is like an oasis in the desert for me. I think I'll just sit here and drink in the water for a while, before I venture back into the desert.

Why venture back to the desert, Jim? It is cool and green here. Stay here. You are welcome. Do not go back to a place where there is thirst and misery.

One might find a link to Covenant Breakers attempts to split the Faith, but they will not attract many people of pure hearted faith, as they are already built on a deception of a very clear and powerful covernant given by Baha'u'llah.

That is what Bahais have done all the time. Ex-communicate those who dare to differ. The example was set by Bahaullah.That is all Bahaullah could do. He did not have power to kill the opponents like Mohammad.

 

[Jim]

"...O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting..."

I have tried to do that all my life ...

... seeing you saying that is like an oasis in the desert for me. I think I'll just sit here and drink in the water for a while, before I venture back into the desert.

Why venture back to the desert, Jim? It is cool and green here. Stay here. You are welcome. Do not go back to a place where there is thirst and misery.

Yes ... yes ... the temptation is strong ... very strong ... yes ... take off my silver spurs, and pass a little more time here, drinking in the water and filling my flask ... maybe just a little longer .. maybe ... just a little ...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Great thing is, there are many ways to approach each subject, I always liked the talk by Tom Price and the explanation about 'Frame of Reference' and "Inattentional Blindness".

Ah. So, we are blind. Nothing new. All monotheists tell that to people of religions other than their own. It takes like Krishna to say (we have heard so much of Bahaullah, I thought it would not be unfair to listen what Krishna had to say):

"It is far better to discharge one’s duties (according to one's faith), even though faultily, than another’s duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous." Gita 3.35
"One who sees the Supreme Soul residing in all things equally and who understands that the immortal in the mortal is never destroyed, is actually seeing." Gita 13.28

I think that prejudices and other kinds of blindness have a lot to do with people rejecting Baha'u'llah, or even refusing to give Him a fair hearing, but I think that Baha'is can be just as blind in all those ways as anyone else.

CG, what do you want from me? An apology? Reparations? What do want from me? I've done everything I could think of to try to help improve the attitudes and behavior of Baha'is in Internet discussions. If you have any better ideas for me, tell me, and maybe I'll try them.

I gave Bahaullah a fair hearing and find that he is just as conceited as the propounder of any other monotheistic religion. But your last paragraph gets a like from me.