MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Gods mind is conflicted over whether hell is a virtue or the opposite.
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I am saying that Jesus taught biblical hell applies to most everyone because the Bible's hell is the temporary grave.
According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died until his God resurrected Jesus.
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
The grave ( biblical hell ) does Not apply to those committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrew 6:4-6.
They are considered to be so wicked that they are classed as the wicked as being 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7.
Furthermore, the Bible's temporary hell ( stone-cold grave ) comes to a final end according to Revelation 20:13-14.
Please notice that after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is then cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. Thus, Jesus according to Revelation 1:18 will bring an end to death and the grave for us when Jesus beings his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers
However, if you study multiple religions with an open mind you can get a fairly accurate picture filtering out some of the human flaws.
WikapediaSince Jesus was of per-human divine creation then he had No human flaws which need filtering.
I find Jesus was clear at John 11:11-14 that the dead are unconscious as in being asleep.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
Such as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The prophet Daniel also believed in a future awakening from death at Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
King David did Not ascend according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
David will ascend Not from a burning hell but from man's temporary grave or hell - Revelation 1:18.
KJV translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was only a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever, Not burning forever.
So, then it is understandable that the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' and Not roasted forever - Psalms 92:7.
To bad neither Jesus nor the Apostles actually wrote the New Testament. But it OK because we know word of mouth passes down very accurately between humans.
Gods mind is conflicted over whether hell is a virtue or the opposite.
I was under the impression that Matthew was an Apostle, and John was an Apostle.
The Bible is more than ' word of mouth ' because it is written down.
Jesus was well educated in the old written-down Hebrew Scriptures to the point that Jesus based his teaching on them. That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written....: meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Also, by all the corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages we see the internal written-down harmony among the many Bible writers.
Even gospel writer Luke had access to the written down temple records and could have used the recorded record found at 1 Chronicles the first nine chapters as his lineage reference in chapter three of the gospel according to Luke.
Jesus knew He would die to save people from Hell, so that works out fine.
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers
Τhen how can the initial state of humans be justified . When Adam and Eve where close to god without evil existing .In short: Free will
'good' cannot exist unless it is freely chosen over the alternative
It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?Jesus knew He would die to save people from Hell, so that works out fine.
Νearness and distance to God can be defined only because sin exists . Also , one can be distanced to god while not indulging to sins , so sin is not entirely linked to it , except if we perceive as sins the worshiping of other gods too. For example, i think you cant argue against the fact that people from other religions , worshiping another god , or even atheists can share a moral values system with a christian. Yet , despite following a similar stance of life , one is characterised as close to God , while the other not. So again , at this perspective the sin of worhiping another god is not a means of improving our perception of good via its opossite as the former suggest . Also , there is a matter of what each one perceives as hell ... But still , one could argue that free will of people who wanted to be near god but aren't strong enought to go against their tendency for sin is violeted . Can't it go both ways ? And about the free will , i answered that before too.So I ask:
Would you prefer this choice to not exist?? You would wish to have forced nearness to God??
Don't you think it'd be better for everyone if people had the option to opt out of hangin' out with God??
Because I for one would like to hang out with God. But I know from experience there are people, ya know, the "anti-theists", who state that even if he exists they wouldn't want to associate with him.
And again, in my faith, "heaven" is simply "nearness to God", so wouldn't forcing such people to "hang out with God" be more of a "hell" for them subjectively then allowing them to go their own way if they really want to?? Like to a rabid anti-theist, wouldn't a reality in which they are forced to constantly hang out with someone they despise be the absolute worst reality for that person??
I have never heared about this perspective , which seems really orthological , from theologiests and poriests from orthodox church . It might be a dogmatic differnece so. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.Fathers often write to their children, so why wouldn't our Heavenly Father transmit His message to us via words.
With the written word (Psalms 119:105) there is No changing of the message as Jesus taught it to us.
God chooses Not to know everything in advance, otherwise there would be No need to ask us to ' repent' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) as per 2 Peter 3:9.
Νice information , i like seeing the parallels with other religions . Thank you ! But ,why an omnipotent god couldnt just create a being that matures differently so that this could be avoided ?Adam (pre-fall) is comparable with Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Enkidu is so closely bound to nature that he does not even know he is a man, like Adam. The Harlot is sent from the city to tempt Enkidu and after he has lain with her, the animals reject him - as the scent of humans is upon him. He cannot return, just like Adam.
The truth is everyone makes this step as our consciousness develops. We develop self-awareness and a feeling of shame (like Adam). Ever noticed how tiny tots are more than happy to run around naked? In order to return to Eden we need to leave it, it was always part of the plan. Genesis, if understood correctly, is a road map back in.
Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?Sorry, that is just not correct. God does not know all things future. If he did, we could have no free will, and the universe we live in would not make sense.
If what I do is because God has foreordained it, then there can be no judgment of it since it is by the will of God.
Truth is I don't know the specific characteristics of Gods of such religions so as to have a solid opinion on that . Although it seems like a reincarnation sytem could make more sense than the hell-paradise one .I think having been given life is the greatest gift God could have given anyone us no matter what our status in life. The chance to live, to learn, to discover and experience life, food, water, happiness, sadness, love, joy and so much more is just a proof of how much God loves us.
I think we are all winners in as much as we all experience life and learn so much and there are other worlds after this one where we will also experience things we failed to experience here if we were deprived.
When you’re born, it’s the beginning of an eternal journey through eternity into all the worlds of God. Some who experience bad things here will be compensated for in the next life and maybe those who have done harm to others here may find the next life tough.
But we have all been given the precious and invaluable gift of life. A grateful person will use it wisely and will always be thankful for it.
There is not complete harmony between the 4 gospels . First example that comes in mind is the inaccuracy that exists on who visited Jesus Christ empty tomb after he ressurectionAlso, by all the corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages we see the internal written-down harmony among the many Bible writers.
Ok , so the Baha'i is not includede to the religious I meant so . I just took as example mine , about which I have heard some theologies saying that .The Baha'i view isn't that God "created hell for demons..." . rather men can choose to turn away from God. Sin is our choice and "hell" is a condition of the soul not a place or locale created for demons. Heaven is nearness to God while "hell" is being alienated from God.
"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)
To me it is Not whether God's mind is conflicted, but rather it is man's mind that is conflicted.
Men's teachings only put bad people in hell, and can you think of anyone righteous who went to hell _______
Some teachings are so deeply embedded in people's minds that it is very hard to erase.
The false non-biblical religious-myth hellfire teaching is so deeply embedded that people can't see the difference in the Bible's teaching about hell. Biblical hell is Not a virtue because the day righteous Jesus died righteous Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 until his God resurrected righteous Jesus out of biblical hell.
Since Jesus taught sleep in death at John 11:11-14 then biblical hell is just the grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
So, instead of pain in hell the Bible's hell is simply mankind temporary stone-cold grave for the unconscious dead.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place, and Not a torture place.
It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?
. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.
Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?
They were Apostles but they didn't write the New testament. They were dead long before the New testament was written.
I do not know what all the denominations teach, but not all of them believe that nonsense, and the Bible does not teach it. It may be demonstrated by a few scriptures that this is so. Whatever the case, it is pure nonsense.Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future
Where's the fun in that?Νice information , i like seeing the parallels with other religions . Thank you ! But ,why an omnipotent god couldnt just create a being that matures differently so that this could be avoided ?
Actually, nowhere does it say in the Bible that Jesus came to save us from "hell". The "hell" that Christendom borrowed from the pagans does not exist. There is no such place. Jesus came to save us out of death....the death that Adam's sin brought on mankind. (Romans 5:12) There is no choice between 'heaven and hell' as opposite destinations...and never was.....the choice was only between everlasting life and everlasting death. We choose which by how we live our life now....either as obedient to the Christ, or not. It isn't more complicated than that.
First of all , I want to wish merry christmas to everyone , with joy , health and love !
Τhen how can the initial state of humans be justified . When Adam and Eve where close to god without evil existing .
It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?
Νearness and distance to God can be defined only because sin exists . Also , one can be distanced to god while not indulging to sins , so sin is not entirely linked to it , except if we perceive as sins the worshiping of other gods too. For example, i think you cant argue against the fact that people from other religions , worshiping another god , or even atheists can share a moral values system with a christian. Yet , despite following a similar stance of life , one is characterised as close to God , while the other not. So again , at this perspective the sin of worhiping another god is not a means of improving our perception of good via its opossite as the former suggest . Also , there is a matter of what each one perceives as hell ... But still , one could argue that free will of people who wanted to be near god but aren't strong enought to go against their tendency for sin is violeted . Can't it go both ways ? And about the free will , i answered that before too.
I have never heared about this perspective , which seems really orthological , from theologiests and poriests from orthodox church . It might be a dogmatic differnece so. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.
Νice information , i like seeing the parallels with other religions . Thank you ! But ,why an omnipotent god couldnt just create a being that matures differently so that this could be avoided ?
Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?
Truth is I don't know the specific characteristics of Gods of such religions so as to have a solid opinion on that . Although it seems like a reincarnation sytem could make more sense than the hell-paradise one .
There is not complete harmony between the 4 gospels . First example that comes in mind is the inaccuracy that exists on who visited Jesus Christ empty tomb after he ressurection
Ok , so the Baha'i is not includede to the religious I meant so . I just took as example mine , about which I have heard some theologies saying that .
I'm sorry, but your position is not in scripture. There is no medieval flaming pitchfork hell as in the Roman "church", but eternal separation from God in a place of suffering is in the original Greek manuscripts and even in the Hebrew texts, for example, the last verse of Isaiah:
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”