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How could an omniscient , omnipotent god of love create sin ?

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I am saying that Jesus taught biblical hell applies to most everyone because the Bible's hell is the temporary grave.
According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died until his God resurrected Jesus.
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
The grave ( biblical hell ) does Not apply to those committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrew 6:4-6.
They are considered to be so wicked that they are classed as the wicked as being 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7.
Furthermore, the Bible's temporary hell ( stone-cold grave ) comes to a final end according to Revelation 20:13-14.
Please notice that after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is then cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. Thus, Jesus according to Revelation 1:18 will bring an end to death and the grave for us when Jesus beings his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

I believe I was debating someone else and if you read through you would realize I believe scripture to be human interpretation with flaws. The only way to understand what god wants to to understand yourself. However, if you study multiple religions with an open mind you can get a fairly accurate picture filtering out some of the human flaws.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

I think having been given life is the greatest gift God could have given anyone us no matter what our status in life. The chance to live, to learn, to discover and experience life, food, water, happiness, sadness, love, joy and so much more is just a proof of how much God loves us.

I think we are all winners in as much as we all experience life and learn so much and there are other worlds after this one where we will also experience things we failed to experience here if we were deprived.

When you’re born, it’s the beginning of an eternal journey through eternity into all the worlds of God. Some who experience bad things here will be compensated for in the next life and maybe those who have done harm to others here may find the next life tough.

But we have all been given the precious and invaluable gift of life. A grateful person will use it wisely and will always be thankful for it.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
However, if you study multiple religions with an open mind you can get a fairly accurate picture filtering out some of the human flaws.

Since Jesus was of per-human divine creation then he had No human flaws which need filtering.
I find Jesus was clear at John 11:11-14 that the dead are unconscious as in being asleep.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
Such as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The prophet Daniel also believed in a future awakening from death at Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
King David did Not ascend according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
David will ascend Not from a burning hell but from man's temporary grave or hell - Revelation 1:18.
KJV translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was only a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever, Not burning forever.
So, then it is understandable that the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' and Not roasted forever - Psalms 92:7.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Since Jesus was of per-human divine creation then he had No human flaws which need filtering.
I find Jesus was clear at John 11:11-14 that the dead are unconscious as in being asleep.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
Such as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The prophet Daniel also believed in a future awakening from death at Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
King David did Not ascend according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
David will ascend Not from a burning hell but from man's temporary grave or hell - Revelation 1:18.
KJV translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was only a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever, Not burning forever.
So, then it is understandable that the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' and Not roasted forever - Psalms 92:7.
Wikapedia
The canon of the New Testament is the collection of books that most Christians regard as divinely inspired and constituting the New Testament of the Christian Biblical Canon.[13]

In the period extending roughly from 50 to 150 AD, a number of documents began to circulate among the churches, including epistles, gospel accounts, memoirs, prophecies, homilies, and collections of teachings.

To bad neither Jesus nor the Apostles actually wrote the New Testament. But it OK because we know word of mouth passes down very accurately between humans.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
To bad neither Jesus nor the Apostles actually wrote the New Testament. But it OK because we know word of mouth passes down very accurately between humans.

I was under the impression that Matthew was an Apostle, and John was an Apostle.
The Bible is more than ' word of mouth ' because it is written down.
Jesus was well educated in the old written-down Hebrew Scriptures to the point that Jesus based his teaching on them. That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written....: meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Also, by all the corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages we see the internal written-down harmony among the many Bible writers.

Even gospel writer Luke had access to the written down temple records and could have used the recorded record found at 1 Chronicles the first nine chapters as his lineage reference in chapter three of the gospel according to Luke.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Gods mind is conflicted over whether hell is a virtue or the opposite.

To me it is Not whether God's mind is conflicted, but rather it is man's mind that is conflicted.
Men's teachings only put bad people in hell, and can you think of anyone righteous who went to hell _______
Some teachings are so deeply embedded in people's minds that it is very hard to erase.
The false non-biblical religious-myth hellfire teaching is so deeply embedded that people can't see the difference in the Bible's teaching about hell. Biblical hell is Not a virtue because the day righteous Jesus died righteous Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 until his God resurrected righteous Jesus out of biblical hell.

Since Jesus taught sleep in death at John 11:11-14 then biblical hell is just the grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
So, instead of pain in hell the Bible's hell is simply mankind temporary stone-cold grave for the unconscious dead.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place, and Not a torture place.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I was under the impression that Matthew was an Apostle, and John was an Apostle.
The Bible is more than ' word of mouth ' because it is written down.
Jesus was well educated in the old written-down Hebrew Scriptures to the point that Jesus based his teaching on them. That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written....: meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. Also, by all the corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages we see the internal written-down harmony among the many Bible writers.

Even gospel writer Luke had access to the written down temple records and could have used the recorded record found at 1 Chronicles the first nine chapters as his lineage reference in chapter three of the gospel according to Luke.

They were Apostles but they didn't write the New testament. They were dead long before the New testament was written.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus knew He would die to save people from Hell, so that works out fine.

Actually, nowhere does it say in the Bible that Jesus came to save us from "hell". The "hell" that Christendom borrowed from the pagans does not exist. There is no such place. Jesus came to save us out of death....the death that Adam's sin brought on mankind. (Romans 5:12) There is no choice between 'heaven and hell' as opposite destinations...and never was.....the choice was only between everlasting life and everlasting death. We choose which by how we live our life now....either as obedient to the Christ, or not. It isn't more complicated than that.
 

arthra

Baha'i
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

The Baha'i view isn't that God "created hell for demons..." . rather men can choose to turn away from God. Sin is our choice and "hell" is a condition of the soul not a place or locale created for demons. Heaven is nearness to God while "hell" is being alienated from God.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)
 
First of all , I want to wish merry christmas to everyone , with joy , health and love !
In short: Free will

'good' cannot exist unless it is freely chosen over the alternative
Τhen how can the initial state of humans be justified . When Adam and Eve where close to god without evil existing .

Jesus knew He would die to save people from Hell, so that works out fine.
It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?

So I ask:

Would you prefer this choice to not exist?? You would wish to have forced nearness to God??

Don't you think it'd be better for everyone if people had the option to opt out of hangin' out with God??

Because I for one would like to hang out with God. But I know from experience there are people, ya know, the "anti-theists", who state that even if he exists they wouldn't want to associate with him.

And again, in my faith, "heaven" is simply "nearness to God", so wouldn't forcing such people to "hang out with God" be more of a "hell" for them subjectively then allowing them to go their own way if they really want to?? Like to a rabid anti-theist, wouldn't a reality in which they are forced to constantly hang out with someone they despise be the absolute worst reality for that person??
Νearness and distance to God can be defined only because sin exists . Also , one can be distanced to god while not indulging to sins , so sin is not entirely linked to it , except if we perceive as sins the worshiping of other gods too. For example, i think you cant argue against the fact that people from other religions , worshiping another god , or even atheists can share a moral values system with a christian. Yet , despite following a similar stance of life , one is characterised as close to God , while the other not. So again , at this perspective the sin of worhiping another god is not a means of improving our perception of good via its opossite as the former suggest . Also , there is a matter of what each one perceives as hell ... But still , one could argue that free will of people who wanted to be near god but aren't strong enought to go against their tendency for sin is violeted . Can't it go both ways ? And about the free will , i answered that before too.


Fathers often write to their children, so why wouldn't our Heavenly Father transmit His message to us via words.
With the written word (Psalms 119:105) there is No changing of the message as Jesus taught it to us.
God chooses Not to know everything in advance, otherwise there would be No need to ask us to ' repent' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) as per 2 Peter 3:9.
I have never heared about this perspective , which seems really orthological , from theologiests and poriests from orthodox church . It might be a dogmatic differnece so. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.

Adam (pre-fall) is comparable with Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Enkidu is so closely bound to nature that he does not even know he is a man, like Adam. The Harlot is sent from the city to tempt Enkidu and after he has lain with her, the animals reject him - as the scent of humans is upon him. He cannot return, just like Adam.

The truth is everyone makes this step as our consciousness develops. We develop self-awareness and a feeling of shame (like Adam). Ever noticed how tiny tots are more than happy to run around naked? In order to return to Eden we need to leave it, it was always part of the plan. Genesis, if understood correctly, is a road map back in.
Νice information , i like seeing the parallels with other religions . Thank you ! But ,why an omnipotent god couldnt just create a being that matures differently so that this could be avoided ?

Sorry, that is just not correct. God does not know all things future. If he did, we could have no free will, and the universe we live in would not make sense.
If what I do is because God has foreordained it, then there can be no judgment of it since it is by the will of God.
Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?

I think having been given life is the greatest gift God could have given anyone us no matter what our status in life. The chance to live, to learn, to discover and experience life, food, water, happiness, sadness, love, joy and so much more is just a proof of how much God loves us.

I think we are all winners in as much as we all experience life and learn so much and there are other worlds after this one where we will also experience things we failed to experience here if we were deprived.

When you’re born, it’s the beginning of an eternal journey through eternity into all the worlds of God. Some who experience bad things here will be compensated for in the next life and maybe those who have done harm to others here may find the next life tough.

But we have all been given the precious and invaluable gift of life. A grateful person will use it wisely and will always be thankful for it.
Truth is I don't know the specific characteristics of Gods of such religions so as to have a solid opinion on that . Although it seems like a reincarnation sytem could make more sense than the hell-paradise one .

Also, by all the corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages we see the internal written-down harmony among the many Bible writers.
There is not complete harmony between the 4 gospels . First example that comes in mind is the inaccuracy that exists on who visited Jesus Christ empty tomb after he ressurection

The Baha'i view isn't that God "created hell for demons..." . rather men can choose to turn away from God. Sin is our choice and "hell" is a condition of the soul not a place or locale created for demons. Heaven is nearness to God while "hell" is being alienated from God.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)
Ok , so the Baha'i is not includede to the religious I meant so . I just took as example mine , about which I have heard some theologies saying that .
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
To me it is Not whether God's mind is conflicted, but rather it is man's mind that is conflicted.
Men's teachings only put bad people in hell, and can you think of anyone righteous who went to hell _______
Some teachings are so deeply embedded in people's minds that it is very hard to erase.
The false non-biblical religious-myth hellfire teaching is so deeply embedded that people can't see the difference in the Bible's teaching about hell. Biblical hell is Not a virtue because the day righteous Jesus died righteous Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 until his God resurrected righteous Jesus out of biblical hell.

Since Jesus taught sleep in death at John 11:11-14 then biblical hell is just the grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
So, instead of pain in hell the Bible's hell is simply mankind temporary stone-cold grave for the unconscious dead.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place, and Not a torture place.

Your right, it would be a human error.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?

. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.

Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?

No, I find Christianity (maybe Christendom) does Not believe God is everywhere because God has a specific location as mentioned in 1 Kings 8:39, 49. God chooses Not to know all, that is why He gifted us with free-will choices.
That means we are Not automatons or robots but free moral creation to choose for one's self to obey God or Not.

The definition of the lake of fire is defined at Revelation 20:13-14. That symbolic lake of fire is: ' second death '.
Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8.
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
Since all the wicked are to be 'destroyed forever' (sinner Satan is wicked) and as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be destroyed forever (annihilated) then that symbolic lake of fire is a fitting description of destruction because when something is thrown into a fire pit it is destroyed forever and Not kept burning forever.

Also, I find the Bible teaches that sinners die. Death is the price tag sin pays as per Romans 6:23.
Since Satan is a willfull sinner then he is going to die. Satan will never gain everlasting life but will be destroyed.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
They were Apostles but they didn't write the New testament. They were dead long before the New testament was written.

According to Scripture I find Matthew wrote Matthew and John wrote John and Revelation as Revelation 1:1 states.
John lived the longest completing his gospel account near the year 100, so they were NOT long dead before writing.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future
I do not know what all the denominations teach, but not all of them believe that nonsense, and the Bible does not teach it. It may be demonstrated by a few scriptures that this is so. Whatever the case, it is pure nonsense.

God knows all things in this universe up to and including the now, and that includes our thoughts, as to the future, he can do better what we can do as in predicting orbits of planetary bodies and suns, and this kind of mathematically prediction and modeling. At some point it becomes simple probabilities, and from then on good luck.

What he does is the following, like a city planner who wants things to be a certain way in 20 years, he plans and makes provisions, when the time comes he forces things, like a city planner, to be what he wants them to be.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Actually, nowhere does it say in the Bible that Jesus came to save us from "hell". The "hell" that Christendom borrowed from the pagans does not exist. There is no such place. Jesus came to save us out of death....the death that Adam's sin brought on mankind. (Romans 5:12) There is no choice between 'heaven and hell' as opposite destinations...and never was.....the choice was only between everlasting life and everlasting death. We choose which by how we live our life now....either as obedient to the Christ, or not. It isn't more complicated than that.

I'm sorry, but your position is not in scripture. There is no medieval flaming pitchfork hell as in the Roman "church", but eternal separation from God in a place of suffering is in the original Greek manuscripts and even in the Hebrew texts, for example, the last verse of Isaiah:

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
First of all , I want to wish merry christmas to everyone , with joy , health and love !
Τhen how can the initial state of humans be justified . When Adam and Eve where close to god without evil existing .

It seems a little bit odd to me for a god to save his creations from something he made us vulnerable to . If i create a robot , programmed to run straight to the wall over and over a wall (because men were created prone to sin) , would it seem rational if i came then to save it from this problematic situation ?

Νearness and distance to God can be defined only because sin exists . Also , one can be distanced to god while not indulging to sins , so sin is not entirely linked to it , except if we perceive as sins the worshiping of other gods too. For example, i think you cant argue against the fact that people from other religions , worshiping another god , or even atheists can share a moral values system with a christian. Yet , despite following a similar stance of life , one is characterised as close to God , while the other not. So again , at this perspective the sin of worhiping another god is not a means of improving our perception of good via its opossite as the former suggest . Also , there is a matter of what each one perceives as hell ... But still , one could argue that free will of people who wanted to be near god but aren't strong enought to go against their tendency for sin is violeted . Can't it go both ways ? And about the free will , i answered that before too.



I have never heared about this perspective , which seems really orthological , from theologiests and poriests from orthodox church . It might be a dogmatic differnece so. I just checked the Revelation in my tastement at this part and it just mentioned a lake of fire . I need to search furthermore about its interprentation so.

Νice information , i like seeing the parallels with other religions . Thank you ! But ,why an omnipotent god couldnt just create a being that matures differently so that this could be avoided ?


Βut christianity believes in an omniscient god that knows everything , and since future belongs to everything , god knows the future . Otherwise , god would have restrictions in its capacities and thus , why would he be an omnipotent god ?


Truth is I don't know the specific characteristics of Gods of such religions so as to have a solid opinion on that . Although it seems like a reincarnation sytem could make more sense than the hell-paradise one .


There is not complete harmony between the 4 gospels . First example that comes in mind is the inaccuracy that exists on who visited Jesus Christ empty tomb after he ressurection

Ok , so the Baha'i is not includede to the religious I meant so . I just took as example mine , about which I have heard some theologies saying that .

It seems odd to you that a loving God would save us from something we're vulnerable to? Should I not teach my children right from wrong? They are both vulnerable to do wrong and inherit the propensity to do wrong from me!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but your position is not in scripture. There is no medieval flaming pitchfork hell as in the Roman "church", but eternal separation from God in a place of suffering is in the original Greek manuscripts and even in the Hebrew texts, for example, the last verse of Isaiah:

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Jesus quoted that prophesy with regard to "Gehenna". It was not place of conscious punishment, but a rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem's walls where the city's refuse, the carcasses of dead animals and the corpses of executed criminals were cast for disposal. The fires of Gehenna never went out because rubbish and everything else thrown in there needed to be constantly consumed. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.

I believe that eternal separation from God means eternal death, not a conscious existence of suffering in any way. No living thing was ever thrown into gehenna. Those not considered worthy of a decent burial were also thought not to be in line for a resurrection...hence eternal death.

No punishment under God's law involved tortured. The highest penalty paid for any crime was death. Israel did not even have prisons. It had no need to punish for punishment's sake. All punishments aside from the death penalty were concerned with recompense for the victim, making the perpetrators work to compensate for what was done to their victims.

By being made accountable, the criminals were also given the opportunity to mend their ways and "go and sin no more".

For a person to be punished after death, a person would have to be alive....to punish them forever, they would have to live forever.
Everlasting life is promised only to the righteous.
 
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