How could an omniscient , omnipotent god of love create sin ?

[Milton Platt]

First the God of the bible consistently wants humans to have a choice. The reason the tree was in Eden was so we could choose our fate. Prophets were all asked to do God's work. They may have been punished(like Jonah) when saying no but they were never forced. In genesis when God creates the heavens this is typically considered the Planets(Stars) not a literal heaven where god lives. Eden is probably a more accurate reflection of living the afterlife with God. It is the one place where Humans and God where together. That being said I believe that humans create there own heaven or hell. We inflict our own punishment or reward after death because of the gained knowledge from God and the understanding we always had a choice. Our minds are great at creating demons and angels where their are none, they will be even better at it when we have a full understanding.

He does not consistently want humans to have a choice. He regularly interfered with human choices in the Bible, starting with Mary's pregnancy.
Punishment is a form of coercion, and is an interference in human decision making as well.

 

[bobhikes]

He does not consistently want humans to have a choice. He regularly interfered with human choices in the Bible, starting with Mary's pregnancy.
Punishment is a form of coercion, and is an interference in human decision making as well.

God asks before interfering, even with Mary. Mary was given the ability to say no. God does use coercion like with Jonah and the fish/whale being perhaps the worse. God is infinite and knows far more than any human the fact that God doesn't force humans but uses coercion and such indicates choice is infinitely important to God.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus quoted that prophesy with regard to "Gehenna". It was not place of conscious punishment, but a rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem's walls where the city's refuse, the carcasses of dead animals and the corpses of executed criminals were cast for disposal. The fires of Gehenna never went out because rubbish and everything else thrown in there needed to be constantly consumed. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.

I believe that eternal separation from God means eternal death, not a conscious existence of suffering in any way. No living thing was ever thrown into gehenna. Those not considered worthy of a decent burial were also thought not to be in line for a resurrection...hence eternal death.

No punishment under God's law involved tortured. The highest penalty paid for any crime was death. Israel did not even have prisons. It had no need to punish for punishment's sake. All punishments aside from the death penalty were concerned with recompense for the victim, making the perpetrators work to compensate for what was done to their victims.

By being made accountable, the criminals were also given the opportunity to mend their ways and "go and sin no more".

For a person to be punished after death, a person would have to be alive....to punish them forever, they would have to live forever.
Everlasting life is promised only to the righteous.

I agree that the literal gehenna did not have the resurrected dead in it, who will resurrect at the last judgment. But most of your argument above is from analogy and logic but not scripture.

The SAME Greek word is used for everlasting for the righteous and the unrighteous, so the righteous will be extinguished in the new age also if you're correct.

I never said people are eternally tortured. Per Luke 16, however, a conscious man is uncomfortable and asked Abraham (a real person, named) to witness to his brother, so that his brother would not be in that place until the judgment.

You sound as if gehenna is the sole word to discuss. What about hades, sheol, the grave, judgment, etc.?

You are also not dealing with the Isaiah passage as literal -

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

...worm does NOT DIE
...fire NOT QUENCHED
they SHALL BE...

and the prior verses include "from new Moon to new Moon and Sabbath to Sabbath" so you'd have to make their extermination last for 30 days to consume the wicked. A body is utterly cremated in mere hours.

Eternal death is the compliment to eternal life. My position is in the source languages and is literal, clear, doctrinal.

Many thousands of Christian sects have read the Bible for themselves and trusted Jesus for salvation and understood eternal Hell from the Greek.

 

[Deeje]

I agree that the literal gehenna did not have the resurrected dead in it, who will resurrect at the last judgment. But most of your argument above is from analogy and logic but not scripture.

The SAME Greek word is used for everlasting for the righteous and the unrighteous, so the righteous will be extinguished in the new age also if you're correct.

Actually I base all my beliefs on scripture....just not Christendom's interpretation. The Jews knew what "gehenna" meant and so did Jesus. Since the ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife, there was no part of man that survived death. The only way for a person to live eternally was by resurrection from the grave....and for a Jew that meant full bodily resurrection back to this life, under Messiah's Kingdom on earth. No Jew had any idea of going to heaven or anywhere else.

Jesus said he was going to call all the dead..."both the righteous and the unrighteous" out of the same place...their graves. (John 5:28-29) Just the same way he called Lazarus out of his tomb. Where was Lazarus before Christ resurrected him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)

I never said people are eternally tortured. Per Luke 16, however, a conscious man is uncomfortable and asked Abraham (a real person, named) to witness to his brother, so that his brother would not be in that place until the judgment.

The rich man and Lazarus was a parable, not a literal story. Taken literally it is ridiculous. Abraham was long dead and the Jews had no belief in an afterlife. The rich man represented the Pharisees and the beggar represented the 'lost sheep' to whom Jesus was sent. Their 'deaths' represented a change in their status. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor once enjoyed by the self-righteous Pharisees, but taken from them and given to the lowly ones who accepted Christ. Their discomfort was felt whilst they were very much alive, scheming to have Jesus put to death because of the way he exposed them as religious frauds. They would not escape "the judgment of gehenna". (Matthew 23:33)

You sound as if gehenna is the sole word to discuss. What about hades, sheol, the grave, judgment, etc.?

In the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew word "sheol" is translated as "hades" so these are one and the same place....the abode of the dead....the common grave.

Solomon, whose wisdom came from God wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10....

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

"Judgment" is for God's appointed judge alone. Those in their graves will rise...those who did good things (in God's eyes, not their own) will experience a 'resurrection to life'....but 'those who practiced vile things' will be brought back for a period of 'judgment'. Many have lived and died with no knowledge of God, his Christ, or his Kingdom, so these will then have that opportunity during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The incorrigibly "wicked" will never see life again. They do not merit a resurrection at all. That is what "gehenna" represents.

You are also not dealing with the Isaiah passage as literal -

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

...worm does NOT DIE
...fire NOT QUENCHED
they SHALL BE...

Jesus didn't think it was literal either. It was the "corpses" of men that were thrown into 'gehenna' so nothing alive ever went in there. In Matthew 5:29-30 Jesus speaks of the 'whole body being thrown into gehenna'.

Many thousands of Christian sects have read the Bible for themselves and trusted Jesus for salvation and understood eternal Hell from the Greek.

And that is the problem.....Greek influence produced all kinds of erroneous doctrines, all adopted by Christendom whose teachings bear little to no resemblance to what Jesus believed and taught as a first century Jew. This is why we need to go back and ask what the Hebrew scriptures taught about everything. These are the scriptures Jesus referred to constantly.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually I base all my beliefs on scripture....just not Christendom's interpretation. The Jews knew what "gehenna" meant and so did Jesus. Since the ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife, there was no part of man that survived death. The only way for a person to live eternally was by resurrection from the grave....and for a Jew that meant full bodily resurrection back to this life, under Messiah's Kingdom on earth. No Jew had any idea of going to heaven or anywhere else.

Jesus said he was going to call all the dead..."both the righteous and the unrighteous" out of the same place...their graves. (John 5:28-29) Just the same way he called Lazarus out of his tomb. Where was Lazarus before Christ resurrected him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)



The rich man and Lazarus was a parable, not a literal story. Taken literally it is ridiculous. Abraham was long dead and the Jews had no belief in an afterlife. The rich man represented the Pharisees and the beggar represented the 'lost sheep' to whom Jesus was sent. Their 'deaths' represented a change in their status. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor once enjoyed by the self-righteous Pharisees, but taken from them and given to the lowly ones who accepted Christ. Their discomfort was felt whilst they were very much alive, scheming to have Jesus put to death because of the way he exposed them as religious frauds. They would not escape "the judgment of gehenna". (Matthew 23:33)



In the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew word "sheol" is translated as "hades" so these are one and the same place....the abode of the dead....the common grave.

Solomon, whose wisdom came from God wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10....

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

"Judgment" is for God's appointed judge alone. Those in their graves will rise...those who did good things (in God's eyes, not their own) will experience a 'resurrection to life'....but 'those who practiced vile things' will be brought back for a period of 'judgment'. Many have lived and died with no knowledge of God, his Christ, or his Kingdom, so these will then have that opportunity during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The incorrigibly "wicked" will never see life again. They do not merit a resurrection at all. That is what "gehenna" represents.



Jesus didn't think it was literal either. It was the "corpses" of men that were thrown into 'gehenna' so nothing alive ever went in there. In Matthew 5:29-30 Jesus speaks of the 'whole body being thrown into gehenna'.



And that is the problem.....Greek influence produced all kinds of erroneous doctrines, all adopted by Christendom whose teachings bear little to no resemblance to what Jesus believed and taught as a first century Jew. This is why we need to go back and ask what the Hebrew scriptures taught about everything. These are the scriptures Jesus referred to constantly.

I'm Jewish and fully aware that the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife, therefore, the Pharisees arguing with the Saducees, which prompted this discussion to begin, the Pharisees insisting on resurrection!

Jesus Christ clarified the argument completely, quoting the Torah to demonstrate that the patriarchs were alive and under God while He Himself was walking and talking on Earth.

 

[Milton Platt]

God asks before interfering, even with Mary. Mary was given the ability to say no. God does use coercion like with Jonah and the fish/whale being perhaps the worse. God is infinite and knows far more than any human the fact that God doesn't force humans but uses coercion and such indicates choice is infinitely important to God.

God does use coercion. He uses threats of punishment. That is coercion. Coercion is a type of force. It is by any stretch an act of interference. The very fact that he would be known to exist is in effect an interference in supposed free will.
He does not always ask before interfering in the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

I'm Jewish and fully aware that the ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife, therefore, the Pharisees arguing with the Saducees, which prompted this discussion to begin, the Pharisees insisting on resurrection!

Resurrection is not an afterlife as Christendom teaches it. The ancients did not believe that the disembodied souls of the dead went somewhere else. That is a Platonic Greek idea that influenced both Judaism and early Christianity. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures. Resurrection means being raised from the dead out an unconscious sleep in a grave. Jesus said he would awaken them. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus Christ clarified the argument completely, quoting the Torah to demonstrate that the patriarchs were alive and under God while He Himself was walking and talking on Earth.

"But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37-38)

Yet Solomon wrote that the dead are 'conscious of nothing' and do not plan or have activity of any sort (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) All sleep in the grave.

That being the case, the resurrection is such a foregone conclusion that as far as God is concerned his faithful servants are just sleeping, as Lazarus was. (John 11:11-14) They are not in "gehenna", but in "hades" (sheol), awaiting the call from Jesus to "come out" of their tombs to resume their lives on earth under his kingdom.

 

[bobhikes]

God does use coercion. He uses threats of punishment. That is coercion. Coercion is a type of force. It is by any stretch an act of interference. The very fact that he would be known to exist is in effect an interference in supposed free will.
He does not always ask before interfering in the Bible.

I would like an example of God interfering before asking or warning.
The book of Job is consider by most to be a story trying to explain bad things happen to good people and not actual history.
The battles like David and Goliath I believe are justifications added by the Israelite's for their wars.

 

[Milton Platt]

I would like an example of God interfering before asking or warning.
The book of Job is consider by most to be a story trying to explain bad things happen to good people and not actual history.
The battles like David and Goliath I believe are justifications added by the Israelite's for their wars.

How do you know the original writers of the passages did not mean them as literal (sources from their time period?)? Why does it matter anyway if a god gives a warning? He still intefered. And prayers are simply a request for a god to interfere with the natural order of things.

 

[Milton Platt]

I would like an example of God interfering before asking or warning.
The book of Job is consider by most to be a story trying to explain bad things happen to good people and not actual history.
The battles like David and Goliath I believe are justifications added by the Israelite's for their wars.

First, it does not matter whether a god notifies someone before it violates the person's free will...their free will has been violated. Second, in the stories you noted, how do you know that the original writers did not mean what they wrote literally? Can you provide evidence from their own time period that they did not mean what they wrote? Coloring someone's writings with your own interpretation two millennia from when it was actually written is a very dicey proposition.

How about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart? When did god appear to the pharaoh and warn him? As to Mary, I do not recall that god asked Mary if it was okay with her...he simply told her it was going to happen. That is not a warning, it is a declaration.

 

[whirlingmerc]

God could allow an evil to achieve a greater good?

 

[Deeje]

God could allow an evil to achieve a greater good?

Object lessons are so much more valuable than mere words. If you tell your child, "don't touch the stove because its hot and you will get burned"...will the words alone prevent a child from disobeying in future? No...but a painfully burnt hand will not be forgotten in a hurry.

The law of gravity is another illustration of why it is wise to obey laws. If you defy the law of gravity, there will be a painful and immediate consequences.

In Eden, the humans knew God's words but disobeyed them because a serpent told them that God couldn't be trusted to tell them the truth. What better way to demonstrate the foolishness of that lie than to allow them to experience the full consequences of their disobedience? This lesson will never be forgotten....ever.

 

[Milton Platt]

Object lessons are so much more valuable than mere words. If you tell your child, "don't touch the stove because its hot and you will get burned"...will the words alone prevent a child from disobeying in future? No...but a painfully burnt hand will not be forgotten in a hurry.

The law of gravity is another illustration of why it is wise to obey laws. If you defy the law of gravity, there will be a painful and immediate consequence.

In Eden, the humans knew God's words but disobeyed them because a serpent told them that God couldn't be trusted to tell them the truth. What better way to demonstrate the foolishness of that lie than to allow them to experience the full consequences of their disobedience? This lesson will never be forgotten....ever.

Since they didn’t know the concepts of good and evil until after they ate from the tree, they had no way to judge the situation. They were punished because the serpent lied to them at a time they had no way to siscdrn evil intent or action.

 

[Deeje]

Since they didn’t know the concepts of good and evil until after they ate from the tree, they had no way to judge the situation. They were punished because the serpent lied to them at a time they had no way to siscdrn evil intent or action.

Actually they did. God would not have issued a command NOT to do something if they had no understanding of consequences. Penalizing them for something they had no idea about would have been unjust. Adam knew that obedience to God was required if they were to continue to partake of the "tree of life". (Genesis 3:22-24) Without it they would die, just as God said.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was not a tree of knowledge per se. God had imparted much knowledge to Adam long before Eve was created. God prepared him to be a husband and family head in the intervening period. The creative days were not 24 hour periods.

The tree that humans were not to touch had wide implications. It was the decision between good and evil that God kept to himself. Humans were not to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad...they were to rely on God to supply that knowledge for them. Like any parent who wants to protect a free willed child from danger, he wanted them to rely on his guidance and direction as they themselves grew in knowledge.

Look at what happened in Eden....the humans decided for themselves what was good and bad and brought calamity on the whole human race. All it took was a carefully planted seed of doubt. By separating themselves from their Creator, they had to learn everything the hard way. Even though God left instructions, the majority treat them as of no account.

Humans in a sinful state do not know the difference between good and bad and often confuse the two with disastrous results. This is what God was trying to avoid....but humans would learn the lesson one way or another.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I think God doesn't 'directly' create sin.... Isiah speaks in terms of God hiding his face from someone and then they fall away

 

[Milton Platt]

Actually they did. God would not have issued a command NOT to do something if they had no understanding of consequences. Penalizing them for something they had no idea about would have been unjust. Adam knew that obedience to God was required if they were to continue to partake of the "tree of life". (Genesis 3:22-24) Without it they would die, just as God said.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was not a tree of knowledge per se. God had imparted much knowledge to Adam long before Eve was created. God prepared him to be a husband and family head in the intervening period. The creative days were not 24 hour periods.

The tree that humans were not to touch had wide implications. It was the decision between good and evil that God kept to himself. Humans were not to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad...they were to rely on God to supply that knowledge for them. Like any parent who wants to protect a free willed child from danger, he wanted them to rely on his guidance and direction as they themselves grew in knowledge.

Look at what happened in Eden....the humans decided for themselves what was good and bad and brought calamity on the whole human race. All it took was a carefully planted seed of doubt. By separating themselves from their Creator, they had to learn everything the hard way. Even though God left instructions, the majority treat them as of no account.

Humans in a sinful state do not know the difference between good and bad and often confuse the two with disastrous results. This is what God was trying to avoid....but humans would learn the lesson one way or another.

They could not have the knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....the text disagrees with your contention.

 

[Deeje]

They could not have the knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....the text disagrees with your contention.

It wasn't the knowledge of good and evil per se.....it was discerning the difference between the two that they needed God's guidance for. God is not unjust, nor is he stupid or unreasonable. To punish people for something they were ignorant about is absurd. This is the Creator from who we gain our own sense of justice. It is impossible for God to be unjust...it is only possible for us to wrongly make accusations about him by not understanding the situation properly.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Resurrection is not an afterlife as Christendom teaches it. The ancients did not believe that the disembodied souls of the dead went somewhere else. That is a Platonic Greek idea that influenced both Judaism and early Christianity. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures. Resurrection means being raised from the dead out an unconscious sleep in a grave. Jesus said he would awaken them. (John 5:28-29)



"But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37-38)

Yet Solomon wrote that the dead are 'conscious of nothing' and do not plan or have activity of any sort (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) All sleep in the grave.

That being the case, the resurrection is such a foregone conclusion that as far as God is concerned his faithful servants are just sleeping, as Lazarus was. (John 11:11-14) They are not in "gehenna", but in "hades" (sheol), awaiting the call from Jesus to "come out" of their tombs to resume their lives on earth under his kingdom.

Many prominent scholars disagree. You are parsing the scriptures incorrectly.

First, examine the Exodus passage I mentioned. Jesus says that 4 centuries after Abraham's death, God is Abraham's present tense God. The Saducees and Pharisees were astonished to hear this word from Jesus Christ.

I'm aware of how Ecclesiastes is written from the wondering wanderer's perspective who sees from HIS perspective that there is no afterlife activity--a good compliment to the Bible's warnings to not pursue communication with the dead, even the saints.

There absolutely are statements of an afterlife in the Hebrew scriptures, which is why the Pharisees and Saducees were debating the issues for many generations!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually I base all my beliefs on scripture....just not Christendom's interpretation. The Jews knew what "gehenna" meant and so did Jesus. Since the ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife, there was no part of man that survived death. The only way for a person to live eternally was by resurrection from the grave....and for a Jew that meant full bodily resurrection back to this life, under Messiah's Kingdom on earth. No Jew had any idea of going to heaven or anywhere else.

Jesus said he was going to call all the dead..."both the righteous and the unrighteous" out of the same place...their graves. (John 5:28-29) Just the same way he called Lazarus out of his tomb. Where was Lazarus before Christ resurrected him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)



The rich man and Lazarus was a parable, not a literal story. Taken literally it is ridiculous. Abraham was long dead and the Jews had no belief in an afterlife. The rich man represented the Pharisees and the beggar represented the 'lost sheep' to whom Jesus was sent. Their 'deaths' represented a change in their status. The "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor once enjoyed by the self-righteous Pharisees, but taken from them and given to the lowly ones who accepted Christ. Their discomfort was felt whilst they were very much alive, scheming to have Jesus put to death because of the way he exposed them as religious frauds. They would not escape "the judgment of gehenna". (Matthew 23:33)



In the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew word "sheol" is translated as "hades" so these are one and the same place....the abode of the dead....the common grave.

Solomon, whose wisdom came from God wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10....

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

"Judgment" is for God's appointed judge alone. Those in their graves will rise...those who did good things (in God's eyes, not their own) will experience a 'resurrection to life'....but 'those who practiced vile things' will be brought back for a period of 'judgment'. Many have lived and died with no knowledge of God, his Christ, or his Kingdom, so these will then have that opportunity during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The incorrigibly "wicked" will never see life again. They do not merit a resurrection at all. That is what "gehenna" represents.



Jesus didn't think it was literal either. It was the "corpses" of men that were thrown into 'gehenna' so nothing alive ever went in there. In Matthew 5:29-30 Jesus speaks of the 'whole body being thrown into gehenna'.



And that is the problem.....Greek influence produced all kinds of erroneous doctrines, all adopted by Christendom whose teachings bear little to no resemblance to what Jesus believed and taught as a first century Jew. This is why we need to go back and ask what the Hebrew scriptures taught about everything. These are the scriptures Jesus referred to constantly.

I cannot have a scriptural debate who entertains even the ideas that taking a parable literally is preposterous, particularly since in each parable Jesus didn't use given names, and here, he used the name of the patriarch Abraham. Luke 16 is not a parable--Jesus finished this non-parable by saying "one from here could resurrect and you wouldn't trust . . . " and He was sharing regarding His own resurrection with the Pharisees!

I cannot have a debate with someone who uses generalities like "I base all my beliefs on scripture....just not Christendom's interpretation." If by that you mean that over 10,000 Christian sects and schisms reexamined the scriptures for themselves and confirmed Hell is eternal as in the "everlasting fire" Jesus warned of in Matthew 18, and that only Jehovah's Witnesses and a few other tiny sects believe in annihilation, stubbornly even where the same Greek word is used for the eternal life and the eternal death of the two campus in scripture . . .

 

[Faithofchristian]

That's quite simple to answer.

How could omniscient, omnipotent God of love create sin?

Think about it?

It's just simple arithmetic, as adding 2+2=4

Without darkness how would you know what darkness is ?

Without day light, how would know what day light is?

Without sin, how would you know what sin is?

That's not hard at all to figure out.

But there are some, that this might be to deep for them to figure out.

And it's just basic arithmetic ?